A few days ago, Pat’s Fantasy Hotlist posted the first look from Warriors, the Tor Books anthology edited by George R. R. Martin and Gardner Dozois. The excerpt was from The Mystery Knight, which is the third novella written by George set in the Seven Kingdoms of his wildly popular A Song of Ice & Fire series.
I knew what was coming the moment Pat posted it.
As soon as The Mystery Knight excerpt went live, the comment area of the thread exploded into a frenzy of negativity and volatility. It seems any article devoted to George R. R. Martin—even a positive post like a first-look excerpt—brings out the utter worst in people. For whatever reason, fans who feel like George is cheating them inundated the thread. In mere hours, the comment area became a heated cesspool of erratic discourse.
I know that animosity and anger very well. I witnessed it first hand when I wrote the rebuttal article In Defense of George R. R. Martin last year.
Why these people couldn’t just view the fruits of George’s creative talent—the exact thing they have been looking forward to for more than a few years—and simply enjoy the excerpt is completely beyond the capacity of rationality.
Rather than get lost in the mayhem of that thread, I thought I would take the essence of what each person posted there, break it down, and invite a few other people to add their own assessments—whether they agree or disagree.
Not that George needs defenders. He doesn’t. He gave up trying to explain himself to his fans a long time ago when every attempt to illuminate why his novels took longer to complete than he thought only incensed a small minority of his readers all the more. No person needs that. That does not mean, however, that I should sit idly by and let falsehoods and misunderstandings continue when I see them. I call a spade a spade, after all.
To get a few different takes on the situation, I sent the same questions to Aidan at A Dribble of Ink, Jeff at Jeff’s Fantasy Review, and Adam Whitehead of The Wertzone. Definitely visit their websites and read what they think on this subject. I understand some people are going to be angry no matter what, no matter if their embittered beliefs are challenged and crumble before fact and evidence. That is their choice. It is my choice to not let those readers get away with it.
Let’s get to it.
1. Don't George's other pursuits--watching football, editing anthologies, traveling to other countries and conventions, blogging about his merchandise--hamper his completion of the new book?
I happen to think that vast majority of those who are angry that George has not completed A Dance of Dragons pin it on the other pursuits that the man has in his life.
While his hobbies do take up a certain amount of time in his life, they cannot be used against the man for not finishing his book. An example: I write five or six hours a day when I am working on a book. Anything I write after those hours is trash and not worth the time spent writing it. My day lasts about sixteen hours. What do I do with the other ten hours? The hobbies I pursue, of course. Watching sports. Going to the gym. Writing emails. Maintaining the websites I must. Shipping out signed books. These other pursuits help reinvigorate my writing batteries for the next day.Every writer has those batteries. Every writer has the need to recharge them in order to get the best out of their craft. If those hobbies are taken away, the craft suffers dramatically.
The question is: Do his angry fans just want a book, even if the quality is low due to writing 15 hours a day and foregoing watching his Jets, or do those fans actually want George's best effort?
Sadly, that question will come up later in the interview too.
It simply speaks to the idea that most readers have no comprehension what it means to write, or write a book, or write a book at the quality that George gives us.
2. Are readers of A Song of Ice & Fire entitled to be angry that George has missed his own created deadlines?
Most definitely yes! They can most certainly be angry with George. I believe he has missed his own deadlines several times over the last ten years and every time one of the deadlines comes and goes people get angry about it—to the point of obscene name calling.
Three things about this point though that people need to remember:
- 1) No one is angrier about missing deadlines than George.
- 2) Some of those missed deadlines have legitimate reasons behind them.
- 3) After George missed the first two deadlines, why did the fans keep trusting him?
Point #1 is self-explanatory. George share your grief. He mentions it all of the time on his blog. For Point #2, I'm not going to go into the details of it but you are more than welcome to read my article, In Defense of George R. R. Martin. As an example: So many fans believe that George took five years to write A Feast For Crows. He didn't. It only took him 3 1/2 years to write the book they read. Point #3 is also self-explanatory. I feel one of the worst things about all of this is the lack of responsibility most fans are taking on.
That too, will come up later in the interview, I believe.
3. Is it unethical for George to write on his blog about his other merchandise opportunities when the majority of people visiting his website are only interested in A Dance With Dragons?
Not. At. All.
This is one of those hot points for me. I have read so many fans write that they are only interested in updates to A Song of Ice & Fire and, in their opinion, there is no reason for George to waste time writing about anything else on his blog. That sounds all fine and dandy, except these people forget two points:
- Many of George's fans actually do love his other work and want to keep informed about it just as they want to be informed about Ice & Fire.
- George has a duty to notify his fans of his merchandising and other endeavors. Those companies go into business with him knowing that he draws a large group of readers to his blog every day. It is part of their marketing strategies.
As for the people who are only interested in A Dance With Dragons news, I often wonder if these people read other fantasy writers out there too?
4. Is it legitimate for a fan who has bought his previous books to criticize George since their money has helped his success?
A resounding NO!
And here's why.The purchase of a book gives the buyer one thing—access to the book and the story inside of it. It does not give them entitlement to anything other than that book. It does not give them entitlement over the author. It does not mean the author suddenly becomes the slave of the reader. As Neil Gaiman so eloquently put it, "George R. R. Martin is not your bitch."
The purchase of the book merely means you get to read the contents between the two covers. That's it. Nothing else.
I can hear people thinking out there. "But Shawn, I bought this book with the understanding I will get to read the conclusion to the series!"
Yeah, and you still might. George is still writing, at least as of two or three days ago. Here is where my comment about personal responsibility comes in. Most people who argue since they bought a book they are owed something seem to forget that they knew when they purchased the book that the series wasn't done yet. Every person out there from the very beginning has known this. At the beginning, the series was to be a trilogy, so no one can say it was originally a stand alone that grew and those people who bought the first book back then got screwed. No, no, and no.
Instead, none of those people take responsibility for reading George early. I stopped at A Clash of Kings because I knew at that point it was going to take George three years to complete a book and there was no reason for me to become wrapped up in it. I made that choice. It is a choice I make with many of today's authors.
I suggest to those readers who feel they are owed something for buying a book to look at themselves and take some responsibility for their own actions. They are at fault just as much as George is for not publishing books quicker.
5. Does a reader have the right to critique an author's professional conduct simply because they have purchased a book by them?
Eh, this is a grey area one for me.
That George has been unprofessional, I agree. But not for what you think. Most people feel they are owed something by him. The fact of the matter is this: George has only been unprofessional to his publisher. The publisher assuredly had him under contract for finishing A Dance With Dragons earlier than February 1, 2010. George has broken that contract with the publisher.Therefore, in my opinion, the only people who can bust George's chops about professionalism are his editor, Anne Groell, and the president of Random House.
Everyone else? Nope.
6. Doesn't George have an obligation to finish books in a timely manner so his fans don't have to keep re-reading his previous books over and over again?
See the last part of my answer for question #4. It gets at personal responsibility for reading a series that is not yet finished.
7. Does George have writer's block?
The comment about George having writer's block comes up all of the time on the internet(s).
It is usually brought up by people who have no understanding of what writer's block truly is.I think Terry Brooks best described it. He says writer's block is the inability of a writer to have thought their story through far enough to not get caught writing into a corner.
I go in depth about this in In Defense of George R. R. Martin. In short, George is a freewriter. When he sits down at his keyboard, he never knows where the story is going to take him. He doesn't outline every character's path to the conclusion. When a character goes down the wrong path, he usually doesn't know it until weeks or even months of work have been put it. By that time it is too late. He has lost that time and he must start over. Starting over takes time too. This is why it takes George on average 3 1/2 years per book.
With A Dance With Dragons, he has written himself into a knot that he is trying to unravel in a way that works for what will come next. He has spoken of this knot several times on his blog. Last week he even shared that one of the chapters he had "finished" four or five times before is perhaps correctly written now.
The point I wish to make is this: George writes the same way he did 19 years ago when he began writing A Game of Thrones. He had a type of writer's black back then. It isn't going to change now. It is the same craft of writing that has given fans such enjoyment during the first four books. To decry that which has given such pleasure is hypocrisy.
8. Isn't the best way to show our displeasure with George is to not buy A Dance With Dragons when it is published?
Yup. Exactly. That is your power as the consumer. If you are truly upset with him at taking five years to write Dragons—which is longer than it normally takes him—then your only recourse is to boycott his books.
Of course, I doubt those fans who are angriest at George will be able to stay away from buying the forthcoming book on the day it is published. Still, it comes down to personal responsibility again. Ironically, the people who are angriest are also their own worst enemies.
9. If it has taken George ten years to write the last two books, how long will it take him to write The Winds of Winter?
As I said in my previous article, it really only took George 3 1/2 years to write the book you all know as A Feast For Crows. It has taken him 5 years to write Dance.
That said, pegging how long it will take him to write Winds is difficult. Here is what I know. George is in the middle of his story, arguably the most difficult part of the tale to write. He has created the characters, set them in motion, and now they are being set up in a correct way to march toward the series conclusion. Like a chess match, it takes many of the right moves in the middle of the game to get the checkmate at its end. In Dragons, George is having to set up every character just the right way. The pivotal point of the series is now. It is why it is taking George longer than usual.Once set into motion, those characters march to their destinies. I think George will have an easier time of writing The Winds of Winter than the last two books. I will say 3-4 years after Dragons is delivered, published, and its resultant tour finished.
I base this simply on the math of how long it took him to write the previous four books, which I talk about in the In Defense article.
10. Isn't it insulting that George thinks he doesn't owe his readers anything? Doesn't he owe us, at the very least, the conclusion of the series since he is living off of the money that we paid him?
I spoke about this earlier. Two things: A book purchased gives the fan a right to said book, and said book only. Personal responsibility.
11. Has George ever apologized for the lateness of his last two books?
Repeatedly. If people think he hasn't, they should probably go back and read his blog. No one is more upset about him and he says as much often.
12. Don't readers have an obligation to be patient with a man who is arguably writing one of the best fantasy series of all time and wants it done right, one that will be read long after his grandchildren are gone?
George has been called the American Tolkien. The label is more fitting than most people even know. The Lord of the Rings is considered the masterwork of the fantasy genre. Look up how long it took Tolkien to write it, to get it right. Look up how many drafts it went through. This should give some kind of scale about why it is taking George so long to write Ice & Fire—and why its completion in the right way is so important to him and should be to the fans.
13. Do his other activities and hobbies like conventions, traveling, editing anthologies, and watching football actually help his writing?
Right back to the beginning of the interview. Read question #1 and its answer for the answer to this one.
That's it for this interview. Definitely read what other bloggers have to say on the subject by visiting their websites: A Dribble of Ink, Jeff's Fantasy Review, and The Wertzone.
If their answers aren't up soon, I'm sure they will be.
Own a blog? Want to answer these questions too? Take them and send me a note that you've done so. I will link to your blog and keep you in mind for the next Blogger Interview next month!
More soon!
1. Don't George's other pursuits--watching football, editing anthologies, traveling to other countries and conventions, blogging about his merchandise--hamper his completion of the new book?
Simply put, no. I work a full time job on top of writing. Somehow I manage to fit all of this into a 24 hour day. I think readers should realize there is more to a published authors life then writing the next book. Some of the things listed in this question, aren't really hobbies, they are required for his job.
2. Are readers of A Song of Ice & Fire entitled to be angry that George has missed his own created deadlines?
Absolutely. I think though that, as Shawn said, we forget that George isn't happy about it either. He knows his readers are upset, upset readers undoubtedly means less sales, and that means less money. George, like every other author, wants to sell books. It may not be just because he wants to make money, in fact I am sure it isn't, but he still wants to sell books. Angry readers don't help that, he knows it, and that makes him angry.
At the same time, he doesn't want to publish trash, and I as a reader am glad about that.
3. Is it unethical for George to write on his blog about his other merchandise opportunities when the majority of people visiting his website are only interested in A Dance With Dragons?
I couldn't agree with Shawn more on this point. I wonder how many readers have the misconception that authors live a life of luxury. It's just not true. George has a right to support himself. Not to mention, an obligation to update the readers of his other works.
4. Is it legitimate for a fan who has bought his previous books to criticize George since their money has helped his success?
Not unless they happen to be his editor, or someone directly affected (fiscally) by it. I think the majority of readers don't understand the work it takes to write a novel of mediocre caliber, let alone, arguably one of the greatest fantasy series ever wrote.
5. Does a reader have the right to critique an author's professional conduct simply because they have purchased a book by them?
This is a gray area for me as well.
Again, I think it falls back on weather or not it directly affects them fiscally.
In the case of most readers, I don't think it does.
6. Doesn't George have an obligation to finish books in a timely manner so his fans don't have to keep re-reading his previous books over and over again?
Not to readers. Last I checked I have no contract with George's signature on it, as I am sure neither do any others this side of Random House.
7. Does George have writer's block?
Since I believe it is impossible for anyone to actually have what most people think of as writer's block, I will say no.
Have some of the characters in Dance ended up in unexpected situations, undoubtedly. George has even said so himself. It takes time and effort to figure out how to make everything fit together. It's not cut and dry, especially with the approach that George uses.
8. Isn't the best way to show our displeasure with George is to not buy A Dance With Dragons when it is published?
Yes. I doubt though that any of the readers upset about being late, will refrain from purchasing it upon publish.
9. If it has taken George ten years to write the last two books, how long will it take him to write The Winds of Winter?
There is no way to give an exact answer. I would say that it will probably take him about as long as it has every other book. I'd also expect that as the series approaches the conclusion, it will take less time.
10. Isn't it insulting that George thinks he doesn't owe his readers anything? Doesn't he owe us, at the very least, the conclusion of the series since he is living off of the money that we paid him?
Weather or not it is insulting isn't an objective question. Is it insulting to me, no, it could be to others. Either way, the only thing that can say how insulted readers are is to not buy the next books. I doubt that the majority of readers would go to that measure.
I however think that George feels he owes his readers a lot. Starting with a book that is to par with the others he has published.
11. Has George ever apologized for the lateness of his last two books?
Yes, read his blog.
12. Don't readers have an obligation to be patient with a man who is arguably writing one of the best fantasy series of all time and wants it done right, one that will be read long after his grandchildren are gone?
No, but again, the only way they can say anything is to not buy the book.
Do I think they should, yes, because I care about the quality of the story, just as much as I care about getting the next installment.
13. Do his other activities and hobbies like conventions, traveling, editing anthologies, and watching football actually help his writing?
See answer to question #1. Some of these things aren't just hobbies, they are part of his job.
Shawn, at the bottom of this page it says this blog is owned by Random House, owners of Bantam Books, the publishers of A Song of Ice and Fire. Doesn't that automatically create a conflict of interest in your pro-GRRM comments? It seems to me that this article has a strong element of bias with it's acceptance of GRRM's pro-crastination.
You may think so, Mega Man.
Except for the fact that I've been saying the same thing for years on Terry Brooks' Forum, well before Random House started paying me for freelance work in Summer 2008.
I have been consistent in my viewpoint for a long time.
While you have a valid concern about bias, bias is not the thing that drives me in this. Common sense does and an understanding of what it means to be someone spending more than a year writing a book.
Oh, and one more point. You say "pro-crastination." Here is a hypothetical:
If George writes for six hours a day, every day, for five years and the book isn't finished, is that him procrastinating?
Just want your honest answer. Because I don't see that as procrastination. I see a writer who destroys four times the amount of work that he actually uses. If it takes Terry Brooks a year to write a book once, what happens if he had to rewrite the same book four times? It would take him four years. It's a simple math.
We know for a fact George destroys more work than he actually likes and puts into the book. It's the reason why his books are so good -- and the reason they take so long to be written. There is no way getting around that fact.
"If George writes for six hours a day, every day, for five years and the book isn't finished, is that him procrastinating?"
Seriously??? First off, given his schedule and the time he spends on his other books, novellas, mini knights, anthologies, Wild Cards, NFL games, HBO parties....highly dubious that he spends 4 hours writing per day in a good week. Last I checked, an actual work day for most people consists of 8-10 hours of actual "work" 5 or 6 days every week. There are vacations and holidays; but that's not every day like George. The guy's schedule seems like a living vacation, and the only ones that suffer are the readers.
Ryan, Ryan, Ryan.
Would you PLEASE answer the hypothetical question. You haven't. haha
I am rather surprised that you have been given work at a serious publishing house, have they ever read your blog? Or are you actually paid for licking ass?
George does not give a shit about westeros. If he can peddle merchandise to pay for the stripers he is fine.
Shawn,
To take just one of your points to task I refer to your comment in point 4
"Instead, none of those people take responsibility for reading George early. I stopped at A Clash of Kings because I knew at that point it was going to take George three years to complete a book and there was no reason for me to become wrapped up in it. I made that choice. It is a choice I make with many of today's authors"
Its simply ridiculous to suggest that a consumer should wait till a series is complete before he/she buys and read the first in a series. For a start, how many great and hard working authors would never get published if no-one bought the first in their series. How much damage would be done to our beloved genre if authors had to do complete works before a house published anything. A foolish comment for someone who should be supporting new authors.
Regarding point 12.
"George has been called the American Tolkien. The label is more fitting than most people even know. The Lord of the Rings is considered the masterwork of the fantasy genre. Look up how long it took Tolkien to write it, to get it right. Look up how many drafts it went through. This should give some kind of scale about why it is taking George so long to write Ice & Fire—and why its completion in the right way is so important to him and should be to the fans"
I'm truly sick of this argument. The reason why George's situation and Tolkien's are so different are to numerous to mention in their entirity. Tolkien worked as a professor his whole career, and yes yes I know World War 2 happened and he didnt teach much... but Tolkien did have the concern of bombs dropping on his head y'know. Tolkien took a long time, but he also had none of the benefits of today's word processing equipment. This American Tolkien crap really bugs me because unless Martin actually FINISHES his opus then they can not even be mentioned in the same sentence. How a series/story finishes is so important to how well a series will age.. Tolkien is so revered for many reason but one of them is because the ending was so poignant. If Martin can't finish his work, and lets be serious, even if we DO get Dance.. the series will never be finished.
I agree 100% that the childish attacks on George's weight and appearance are ridiculous and should be ignored, but slavish devotion and excuse making for an Author who has treated his public with disdain only discredits and jeopardises our entire genre.
Thank you for opening this up to comment and I hope it can stay mature unlike it has at other places.
Wow, what a post of "sensible excuses" for perhaps one of the biggest examples of fan alienation in publishing history. You know you have a second eye right? Maybe use it from time to time.
Anyway, I'll have a go and answering your speculative answers with my own thoughts. Let me start off with saying that I think George's biggest problem is with perception, and that if he took the time to admit that his behaviour has angered a lot of readers, it would not take much change in his behaviour to rectify the situation.
1. Don't George's other pursuits--watching football, editing anthologies, traveling to other countries and conventions, blogging about his merchandise--hamper his completion of the new book?
I would say, most definitly. George has throughout his career indicated that his writing space is very fragile. If I'm not mistaken even admitted to not being comfortable to write while away from home. Now other professional writes might not have issues with that, Neil Gaiman doesn't for example. But since George is already years behind on his deadlines, I would hazard to guess that a temporary break from cons might help. I do realise he needs time to recharge, but it seems as if the equilibrium is no longer in balance. 'Work hard, play hard' the saying goes. George, unfortunately has given us evidence of one of those two.
2. Are readers of A Song of Ice & Fire entitled to be angry that George has missed his own created deadlines?
Absolutely. I don't mind waiting for a book. But when you repeatedly promise dates or set deadlines and then break them without very much in the way of apology or explanation, you are asking for trouble.
3. Is it unethical for George to write on his blog about his other merchandise opportunities when the majority of people visiting his website are only interested in A Dance With Dragons?
Not unethtical, no. It does make George look like a complete arse when he only talks about merchandise, censors reasonably asked questions concerning Dance, sell water damaged-books for a higher price than you can get them at amazon. A used cars salesman is not unethical either, but still might be a slimey worm.
4. Is it legitimate for a fan who has bought his previous books to criticize George since their money has helped his success?
It is always legitimate to have an opinion. Whether or not it always is a worthwile opinion, is debatable. It's up to George if he wants to listen or not. Look, I have no iPad (and will most probably not get one), but no one will stop me from saying that I think the lack of multitasking sucks and that Apple is in danger of losing itself in its own image.
5. Does a reader have the right to critique an author's professional conduct simply because they have purchased a book by them?
Difficult on more than one account. Do you buy just the finished product or does being a reader create a supplier/client relationship? Secondly, and most importantly in this case, do you buy one book or do you invest in a series? If I'd buy a card game one card at a time, and the card make factory told me the next card was due next week, and then doesn't deliver for months, doesn't answer the phone when I want to enquire politely and sets the hounds on me when I visit, I'd be pretty pissed off, and for more than just not being able to play Texas Hold'em.
6. Doesn't George have an obligation to finish books in a timely manner so his fans don't have to keep re-reading his previous books over and over again?
What a forced way of posing a question. Does George have an obligation to finish the books in a timely manner? Not really, some people take longer than others. It is known. Should he lie to me about, though? No. Should he treat me with a complete lack of respect when I politely inquire after Dance? No. Am I allowed to feel annoyed by being treated as a nuissance rather than a fan? Hell, yeah.
7. Does George have writer's block?
Shawn, how can you answer this question when having only read the first two parts of the series? Everything in 'A Feast for Crows' pointed towards George getting stuck. There was too much added filler, because I believe he has lost the drive in his story. The Meereenese knot is a prime example of that. It has stopped him for more than a year, now. I don't know how you'd define writer's block, but I am conviced by everything that George himself told us that he is struggling.
He's mostly to blame himself for that. His method of endless rewrites, kills the story. It wouldn't surprise me if George no longer liked spending time in Westeros, and it has become a chore to him. And that would be very sad, indeed.
8. Isn't the best way to show our displeasure with George is to not buy A Dance With Dragons when it is published?
As long as dance remains unpublished this is a hypothetical question. Will I buy it upon release? No. I might buy it as a paper back if it gets rave reviews by critics I trust.
In the mean time, I think detractors are in their right to complain and have a whine in their own corner of the Internet. I don't need to bother pro-people who don't ask for a response, and they don't need to bother me. Everybody wins.
9. If it has taken George ten years to write the last two books, how long will it take him to write The Winds of Winter?
Another hypothetical question, since Dance is not yet released. You claim Feast to be 3 and a half years in the writing. Since Feast started as a book containing all characters, Dance could now be considered 8 and a half years in production. Given my doubts on George's commitment and personal drive to spend time in Westeros, I'm afraid I think he might die before the next installment hits the shelves.
10. Isn't it insulting that George thinks he doesn't owe his readers anything? Doesn't he owe us, at the very least, the conclusion of the series since he is living off of the money that we paid him?
That comes back to whether you think you buy into a series or just individual books. Stephen King held to the series-line of thinking and made a conscious effort to finish the Dark Tower. Note that he did this at his own pace, which is fine to me.
What is most insulting is George total lack of respect for his readers. This is something that is at the heart of the matter and unfortunately you do not touch upon it. I don't think the majority of the detractors have a problem with the time between book, but more with the deceiving, disrespectful way George has treated them in that period.
11. Has George ever apologized for the lateness of his last two books?
Sure, after public outcry. Did he apologize for misleading a portion of his readership to think that Dance was finished earlier this week? No! He placed the blame squarely on those who misjudged an ambiguous post in their eagerness. Not nice, George, not decent.
12. Don't readers have an obligation to be patient with a man who is arguably writing one of the best fantasy series of all time and wants it done right, one that will be read long after his grandchildren are gone?
I hate the word obligation. Readers have the right to complain and bitch, if they feel the need. If I buy a faulty computer or if customer service doesn't help me properly, I am in my right to find a place to vent my frustration at the experience, whether that be at the dinner table or online.
As for you assessment on the quality of the series, I am not so sure. Things might be forgotten quicker than you think. A Feast for Crows was very dissapointing, Dance up to this point hasn't filled me with confidence yet. I hope it's brilliant, but whether or not it will be remembered as great remains to be seen.
Tolkien is not really a proper comparison so make, by the way. He did more than create a series, he reinvented a genre. Held a full time job. And depending when you place the starting point of the Lord of the Rings, had to go through one or two world wars. If you count the publication date of the Hobbit, after which Tolkien was asked to write a sequel, it comes up to 18 years (including one World War). Martin is not far of that number.
Besides for every Tolkien, there's a Pratchett. Some one who has delivered regularly and on time and with consistent high quality. While remaining a nice person.
13. Do his other activities and hobbies like conventions, traveling, editing anthologies, and watching football actually help his writing?
See answer to question #1.
Or in short, get of you high horse and stop making us out to be unreasonable.
@Ratatosk: "Did he apologize for misleading a portion of his readership to think that Dance was finished earlier this week? No! He placed the blame squarely on those who misjudged an ambiguous post in their eagerness. Not nice, George, not decent."
You need to be called on this one.
If you're referring to his post about finishing a "chapter" and "whacking at the Meereenese knot", then anyone who believes Martin misled them to think Dance was finished has only themselves to blame for their poor reading comprehension skills.
This is clearly a case of willfull misreading -- and of putting words into Martin's mouth that he nowhere wrote/said himself. There is nothing "ambiguous" about the post: "Writing, writing ..." pretty clearly indicates that he's still working on Dance. Explain to me, with textual evidence, precisely where Martin misleads readers and/or is ambiguous in this post.
If anyone was "Not nice ... not decent," it would be those who got on Martin's case for thinking he had misled them. They have only themselves to blame for their knee-jerk, overly sensitive reaction to the post -- and for their inability to read well.
Your post only demonstrates how far people have strayed from reality in this situation. You are seeing only what you want to see now, not what is actually happening.
Ridiculous.
Ratatosk: Some of your comments just show the ignorance (and I don't use that in a bad way, I use it as the definition implies) that runs around the internet. Here are a few of them:
As per the writer's block issue:
"He's mostly to blame himself for that. His method of endless rewrites, kills the story (in regards to Feast)."
You do understand that George has been writing the same way since the beginning, right? You say the story is killed based on the quality of Feast and you blame endless rewriting as the reason for that book's faults? And yet George rewrites as much as he did for the first three books, three books that everyone considers brilliant. Are you in fact saying those books aren't brilliant? Because if you aren't, then this argument you just made is illogical -- like most of the arguments about George and his lateness of Dance.
About how long it will take to write Winds of Winter:
"You claim Feast to be 3 and a half years in the writing. Since Feast started as a book containing all characters, Dance could now be considered 8 and a half years in production."
Yes, Feast started out that way. Feast also started out years in the future with the Stark kids older and all plotlines very different. George wrote for 1 1/2 years on that storyline before canning it all, knowing it wouldn't work. He then started over.
Perhaps you don't know that? Again, ignorance on the situation is what drives most of the animosity and this point. George had some chapters for Dance completed during the second Feast session, sure, but nothing substantial, nothing that was even remotely close to 1/8 of the book. And knowing him, those chapters were probably canned at some point anyway. So no, George has not been working on Dance for 8 1/2 years.
Fan Respect by George:
"I don't think the majority of the detractors have a problem with the time between book, but more with the deceiving, disrespectful way George has treated them in that period."
"Sure, after public outcry. Did he apologize for misleading a portion of his readership to think that Dance was finished earlier this week? No! He placed the blame squarely on those who misjudged an ambiguous post in their eagerness. Not nice, George, not decent."
I suppose events like that which happened last week are "disrespect" in your book. haha Mike J. pretty much sums up my thoughts on that comment. The fans are responsible for almost every instance in these types of situations. Obviously you should start taking responsibility for it too based on what happened (ie. fans believing George was finished with the book, looking into his comments and believing what they want, and then when George corrects them they freak out over it and call him disrespectful for their own mistake?). haha
"Or in short, get of you high horse and stop making us out to be unreasonable."
Your comment that Mike J. highlighted just shows you to be unreasonable. It's not me doing it; it's you doing it.
Look, some of your comments are quite valid. But most are founded in misinformation. Hence the reason for posts like these.
I think if the truth be known out there, most people would start focusing on the real reasons they should be upset instead of making up new ones to rationalize their anger.
craterus: "Its simply ridiculous to suggest that a consumer should wait till a series is complete before he/she buys and read the first in a series."
The point you bring up about readers not waiting for a series to be finished is a valid one.
The only problem with I have with it is I'm not talking about all readers here. I'm talking about the small but very vocal minority of people who have a tendency to be angry at long periods between book releases. They know who they are. The vast bulk of George's fans might be annoyed but it doesn't drive them like it does the minority. The majority go on to read other books and enjoy their lives without being vitriolic about it.
Therefore those majority of readers who can respect the author even though it irks them, those people will still be able handle reading a new author and taking the risk. New authors will still sell enough books to keep writing. No worries.
As for your second point, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see George disrespecting his fans at all. I see fans being idiots and George calling them out. That's his right. If those fans don't like it, they don't have to read his blog. Pretty simple, really. Nowhere on his site does it say "you can bash the author and he will just take it in the arse."
Mike J: Ratatosk was referring to one of his earlier posts which is entitled "A Good day with Snow" in which he just writes "Nuff Said" in the body of his post.
After that vague entry, he follows it up with an agitated response in which he calls out everyone who thought he might have finished and basically belittles them.
I also find this line particularly funny: "When I finish DANCE, you'll know it. I will write something like this: "I have finished A DANCE WITH DRAGONS." You won't need to parse any hints."
This is coming from the man who gave all of his blog readers clues and hints as to who was playing who in the HBO series.
"A Good Day With Snow" = "I am finished with DANCE. WHOOPPEE!"
???
A Good Day With Snow simply means he had had fun playing in the Santa Fe snow or he finished a Jon Snow chapter. Last I checked, there are more POV characters in Dance than just Jon Snow. Right?
The point is, this is one more aspect of people hoping for something and the facts not backing it up. Or reading comprehensions are at an all time low. Perhaps if George had said at some time, "I only have one chapter left to write and it's a Jon Snow chapter," THEN people could get excited and people would have every right to be annoyed at the "disrespect" George commented with.
But has George ever said that? No! Of course not! Take some responsibility, people.
Sorry Mike, but your wrong...
If you read his first post entitled: "Dancing" you notice the first thing he does is talk about it snowing outside, and then he immediately mentions Jon Snow. Then starts talking about snow falling again...
In the next paragraph he mentions that he's going to switch to a Jon [Snow excluded] chapter the next day. He says Jon not Jon Snow because he wants you to forget about the snow now...GRRM moves on about finishing a chapter...blah, blah, blah...
Go back and read that first paragraph, and you'll see that that is the hook...That's what he wanted you to read. The reason why he wrote it this way is that he knows that everyone reads the first paragraph and then skims over the rest of the post, until you get to the final lines where it talks about him, "Writing, writing..." Your eyes do that involuntarily, and that's why if your applying for a job the 1st and last paragraphs of your cover letter should list all you qualifications because everything else is skimmed over. That's not to say that they don't go back and reread it, but the first and last are always read...
Back to the first paragraph...notice how the sentence structure is different from the rest of the post? They're short and choppy that's because they resonate with people more so than long sentences. It's why all great slogans whether they be for companies or politics are all just a couple words...Coke is it...You voted Obama because you want Hope and Change...You drink Maxwell House coffee because it's Good till the last drop....You rent a car from Avis because We try harder....7-up is the UnCola... You eat Frosted Flakes because They're Grrrreat! Get the point yet?
OK, now go back and read the first paragraph and the last line.... Admit it, your imagining George sitting at his computer, looking out the window watching the snow fall down while he's working on A Dance with Dragons...Imagine, by the way is another strong advertising word because the word gets you to picture in your mind the message I want to convey.
On to post #2 entitled "A Good Day, With Snow"
He uses snow again. Where did we see snow last time? In the first paragraph of his last post. What was happening in the first paragraph? It was snowing.... Get the picture...
Of course, the meat of the post was a picture of the cover of aDwD. Nothing is more powerful than a visual aid. It automatically draws your eyes to it and conveys a message. What did it say next to the picture? "'nuff said" Short sentence. Skim to the end, and what does it say? Accomplished. The intended message was, "I finished the book!" See advertising tricks....
Then there was post #3 entitled "No, No, No"
Picture of angry typewriter. Visual. Now he plays the victim. George tries to give his fans an update and everyone overreacts. This is why he doesn't update because no one understands what he's talking about.... He by the way, doesn't forget to add all the talking points that he wants all his bootlicking friends to have....
GRRM is not a stupid man, Mike. I know you want to believe that he didn't realize what peoples reaction would be when he made that post, but your wrong Mike. GRRM knew exactly what he was doing...
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I also find this line particularly funny: "When I finish DANCE, you'll know it. I will write something like this: "I have finished A DANCE WITH DRAGONS." You won't need to parse any hints."
This is coming from the man who gave all of his blog readers clues and hints as to who was playing who in the HBO series.
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Wow - talk about ignorance. At multiple times on his blog, George stated quite clearly that HBO asked him NOT to announce casting decisions until they'd announced them formally. He was allowed to drop hints to his fans, so that is what he did. How could you possibly be upset by that, or think that's indicative of anything else at all?
He has also stated about 100 times that he will state clearly and with no equivocation on his Blog the moment he is done with ADWD. He has even stated that after his publisher and Parris - his fans would be the first ones he tells, and clearly.
Is this the new tactic by some of you GRRM apologists? Dismiss everything that's even slightly critical of GRRM as 'ignorance'? :/
Very poor show. It seems you guys have adopted a 'Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil' approach when it comes to anything critical of GRRM.
What else is it, Mega Man?
90% of everything the haters adopt is based on falsehoods. Pure and simple. They can be disproven by the factual evidence that is already out there. Most of those people don't know what the facts are -- and that makes them ignorant, does it not?
That IS the definition of the word, is it not?
"Lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact."
I and others like me have no need to make anything up. And most of it is posted in my IN DEFENSE article from last year.
It's people who believe that Storm was written in a year 1/2 because that's what the publication page says. haha
And I am far from an apologist. Would an apologist call Martin a liar? Hmm... I wonder.
I call a spade a spade. It's that simple. If the best the "haters" can come up with is, "He disrespects us because we can't comprehend simple English," then you may want to rethink your beliefs and come over to the Dark Side of the Sith. :)
Far out, these blog comment trails are difficult to format a decent reply in. There should really be a quote-button or something.
Look, I don't want to end up in an endless argument. The nature of internet discussions is so that people will repeat earlier statement ad infinitum. I do want to clarify one or two things that you might have misunderstood, though.
1. To Mike J and Shawn: As Mike S already mentioned, I was indeed talking about the 'Nuff Said' post and his consequent reaction to premature celebrations. I'm too much of a cynic to believe Dance is done before I see it lying in a local bookstore. Many (younger perhaps?) people did interpret it that way, however. Whether they were stupid to do so, or not, is really not the point. I would have liked George to have apologised for the confusion, rather than belittle those that in their eagerness misinterpreted him.
2. Shawn: please don't call me ignorant on the writing process. It's very patronizing, and not necessary for the point you are making. Stories of mine have been published, books have been written. I am no Shakespeare, but I do know how it is to write. Yes, I understand the first three were written in the same way (although since they took a shorter amount of time than Dance, there were probably fewer rewrites) and they are good. All I am saying is that George's style of endless rewrites would eventually bog the story down and kill it. Feast is when that started happening, I believe. It is admirable George managed to get that far without losing quality in the first place. It's like going on a holiday and driving your car multiple times across each street, eventually you will run out of gas. I'm afraid George has run out of gas.
3. So how long is Dance taking, then? Because in the back of my copy of Feast it says it is nearly done. Did he purposely decieve me there? However long it really is, it doesn't really matter. The wait is not the issue, for me.
4. You know, if an author uses a blog, he enters into a conversation with his or her readers. That is great, but it comes with the normal rules of social behaviour. I call repeatedly lying about your product without explanation disrespectful. I call censoring reasonable questions and banning people without explanation disrespectful. I call petulant reactions to naive overexcitement disrespectful. I call the way he goes about selling water damaged books for more than you can buy them at amazon disrespectful. You and I might have a different definition of respect, but in my book, these examples, show a lack of respect.
And maybe that's what it all boils down to. How much are you willing to put up with, or forgive, an author and his behaviour? That's different for most people. Definitly for you and me. Best to accept that there's different opinions out there, and they are not all unreasonable.
P.S. I keep getting error messages when trying to comment. Is there a way of updating the captcha so it doesn't expire while you're typing?
I think the only REAL issue is the fact that many readers feel misled, lied to, or disprespected. This is where the entire disconnect happens as well, with both sides of this issue. The simple explanation is that George has made many many mistakes in thinking he was done, or near done, with each of the last two books. The lesson for George is to stop making "updates" or stop promising dates....which is exactly what he has now, finally, chosen to do. He shut off the comments on his blog to avoid the anger, and announced that he would avoid making updates or any prognostication at all regarding the delivery of ADWD. He IS trying to be respectful and honest with his fans - even if you believe he wasn't before.
In my mind, a Lie exists where malice is part of his intent; versus a Mistake where he doesn't intend to mislead, but unfortunately gives us a goal or deadline that he fails to meet.
He has said he's sorry, but diminishes that in the minds of some readers when he says "no one" is more frustrated than he is. In reality, though, that really is likely true. While many of us love these books, they are George's legacy and what he will be remembered for for the rest of his life. He lives with these books and with the story in his head every single day of his life - and it is fairly unreasonable to think that any of us are as upset as he is with the delays and the problems he has encountered.
Maybe a little more groveling would help readers feel better, but it wouldn't change anything. He's sorry he made mistakes in the past, and he has been pretty steadfast in saying he won't make them again. He is trying to respect his readers that way. Let's give him a chance.
Wow - talk about ignorance. At multiple times on his blog, George stated quite clearly that HBO asked him NOT to announce casting decisions until they'd announced them formally. He was allowed to drop hints to his fans, so that is what he did. How could you possibly be upset by that, or think that's indicative of anything else at all?
He has also stated about 100 times that he will state clearly and with no equivocation on his Blog the moment he is done with ADWD. He has even stated that after his publisher and Parris - his fans would be the first ones he tells, and clearly.
---------------------------------------
I'm not disparaging him for giving hints at the HBO castings at all. My point is, is that after that guessing game, I found it funny that he said "You won't need any hints" in regards to the book being finished. As if people were being stupid in trying to draw something more from the post when a ton of his previous posts did have hints and hidden meanings.
And forgive me for not taking this man's word on everything he says. Correct me if I'm wrong but he doesn't seem to keep it 100% of the time.
@silentmajority: "Sorry Mike, but your wrong..."
Truly?
You've given a rather detailed analysis of two blog posts that in effect treats them as separate entities, when in fact they function in relation to each other -- in which case, the "A Good Day, With Snow" post makes complete sense following from the "Dancing" post ... for anyone keeping up with Martin's Not a Blog regularly.
What you demonstrate is precisely the problem I identified at the end of my previous post here: people are now reading for what they want to see/hear/read, not what is actually there.
Sure, Martin's not "a stupid man," as you write -- but he's also probably not consciously and purposely using every single possible opportunity as a marketing ploy. You seriously believe that his "Dancing" post was constructed on some sort of marketing and reader response logic, and that it was not him simply feeling good about the writing process and wanting, generously, to tell his readers/fans about it?
And with regard to using the Dance cover image in the "A Good Day, With Snow" post, that can easily be seen as giving his readers an anchor with regard to what "Snow" means: i.e., "Snow" as in "Jon Snow," which was also the subject of his previous post. Moreover, in good LiveJournal fashion, Martin indicates his mood as feeling/being "Accomplished, so if you want to read that as meaning to say Dance is done, when nowhere does Martin state as much, then that is you twisting the format and spirit of the LiveJournal environment to suit your own needs -- it is not anything Martin is, or should feel, at fault for.
I don't think at all that I am wrong for calling people on their willfull misreadings of Martin. They simply show that for some this whole situation has passed beyond what is reasonable, respectable, and realistic.
Boy, I can understand Martin's frustration with making updates ....
Ratatosk: "Many (younger perhaps?) people did interpret it that way, however. Whether they were stupid to do so, or not, is really not the point."
Why? Why isn't it the point. I can cross my eyes, hold my nose closed, and stare at a dog turd until it becomes a tasty biscuit. Doesn't make it a tasty biscuit. It means I'm an idiot for wishing something that just isn't true. I don't blame the dog who shat it. Make sense?
As Jeff stated quite succinctly up above, George has said repeatedly that when Dance is done he will sing it to the high heaven. Do you and everyone else forget certain parts of his blog?
"All I am saying is that George's style of endless rewrites would eventually bog the story down and kill it.
Why?
He is at the most critical part in the story, in my opinion. As a writer, I know you know that. So why isn't him taking his time and making sure it is done right terrible? Simply because you don't have the book in your hand?
I know what you are saying about Feast. I have seen many people say it was a subpar book. Although I have not read it, I know the gist. I have a theory that the book felt subpar because it didn't have all of the great characters people love -- Jon, Dany, Tyrion, etc. Those characters drive the overall story and without them...
... that said, Dance will have all of them in it. What does that tell you about Dance already? My theory is that book will be the biggest literary orgasm for Martin fans ever. haha We'll have to wait and see.
"So how long is Dance taking, then? Because in the back of my copy of Feast it says it is nearly done. Did he purposely decieve me there? However long it really is, it doesn't really matter. The wait is not the issue, for me."
When George wrote that, he had almost an entire book finished. Then he wrote himself into a corner and had to back out -- resulting in the destruction of most of that work and more importantly to you guys, all of that time. That's the way it goes when you read a freewriter.
My question is this and I hope everyone answers it: Will you read Dance when it is published, knowing that Winds is going to take 3+ years and knowing the final book will take 3+ years? Or will you buy it immediately when it is published and then continue bitching about the "lateness" of the next books for the next seven years?
Honestly wondering.
"P.S. I keep getting error messages when trying to comment. Is there a way of updating the captcha so it doesn't expire while you're typing?"
This drives me bonkers too. I wish I had an answer. I know Suvudu is redesigning their website over the next two or three months, so hopefully it will be addressed sooner than later. I'll forward your concern to those in the know. :)
"...so if you want to read that as meaning to say Dance is done, when nowhere does Martin state as much, then that is you twisting the format and spirit of the LiveJournal environment to suit your own needs -- it is not anything Martin is, or should feel, at fault for."
Right...so posting the cover of a book next to the words "nuff said" is in no way an ambigious message. Now, I didn't misintepret the message, mostly because I don't believe anything he says with regards to dance. But, it's quite easy to see how people might have gotten the wrong idea. And while I only had a quick flick through the comments, most of them seemed to be along the lines of "whoo, yipee, well done George!"
Now, if I was a guiless little genuine fan who just wanted to say congratulations and thank you then George's next grumpy, aggravated post would have made me feel somewhat small and stupid. You might say that I deserve to feel small and stupid but I say, there's no reason to make any of your fans feel bad. Especially not when you're a professional writer communicating through written words on a blog. He could have said, oh, I'm so sorry that some of you misunderstood...blah,blah,blah. But no. George wants to go out of his way to assert his superiority by making others feel inferior. Never mind that communication is a two-way street, buddy. If you post something and a whole slab of people misunderstand what you just said, the blame goes 50/50. Tell me I'm wrong.
By the way, I'm not saying people shouldn't be angry! Hell, I'm angry. It hurts the publisher, it hurts the bookstores who want a bestselling title, it hurts the fans. It's bad for the fantasy genre as a whole.
I said as much in my IN DEFENSE post.
I just don't like seeing people bringing up erroneous comments that have no basis in fact. Like, "The reason the book isn't done is because he watches football." That has nothing to do with it and is just a feeble attempt to rationalize said anger. 90% of the comments are made for a similar reason.
...but Mike every time GRRM posts something about aDwD it starts buzzing around the internet, doesn't it? I guess I'm not buying the fact that it was an innocent mistake.
After all the grief, he has gotten from all his missed deadlines, lack of updates, and everything in between, are you telling me that he didn't realize what people would think when they saw that post? Not everyone reads his blog everyday, so the reaction to that post was predictable.
I think you guys view GRRM as this fragile, old man who needs to be defended all the time. I don't see him that way. I see a crafty, old man who knows how to generate buzz, and keep people talking about him.
The problem that I have is that when people predictably thought that he had finished the book he responded not with an apology but with anger. Remember most people were expecting this book four years ago, and most have been waiting silently the entire time. It's a slap in the face to be talked down that way. He could've responded with: sorry for the misunderstanding but... That would've killed the buzz though.
How many times over the years have I read it's just a book, it's just a book read something else, and now your telling me we're supposed to analyze a blog post? And because some people don't analyze it their stupid? Are you kidding me? And you guys still wonder where all the GRRM backlash comes from....
"The problem that I have is that when people predictably thought that he had finished the book he responded not with an apology but with anger. Remember most people were expecting this book four years ago, and most have been waiting silently the entire time. It's a slap in the face to be talked down that way. He could've responded with: sorry for the misunderstanding but... That would've killed the buzz though."
Yes, you are right, it would have handled the problem in a better manner. But, can you see the other side of it? I just don't think its that surprising that a guy who has been abused repeatedly about his delays and false starts would react in a fairly exasperated manner to this. I can see where some readers got excited from misreading his post - but in his mind it was very clear. He was writing a post following up on the post from the day before. And when the cavalcade of positive responses thinking he was done started showing up (along with the sarcastic "I'll believe it when I see it" ones); he had to be thinking 'you have got to be kidding me, how could someone misread what I wrote'...and he wanted to put an end to that immediately. He could have done it more politely or taken more blame, but I don't think it was something like "he treats us like jerks" or anything else. Just another sad case of the internet as a very very poor method of communication.
Jeff I know what your talking about, but when a person reads a blog it's kind of like the blogger is talking directly to them. So when your Average Joe reads it and gets excited, and then he reads the follow up post it seems like GRRM is smacking him down too even though he never posted anything.
Compared to his fans as a whole, the ones who attack him personally are a very small percentage. You can't let that small percentage dictate how you interact with everyone, or at least you shouldn't if you don't want to upset more fans.
If you compare GRRM's rowdy fans to someone like...Brett Favre there's no comparison. He played for the Green Bay Packers and then switched teams and went to their most hated rival. They booed him, called him names, wished bodily harm to him, and burned him in effigy! You know what he said when the press asked him about it? He said that they were just passionate football fans, who loved their team, and he now played for their rival. He didn't take potshots at them because they burnt him in effigy, he realized it was just part of doing business in the NFL, and that one day they'd love him again... George should be taking notes...
silentmajority -
If I didn't know better, I'd think you knew more about me than you'd let on. If you want a favorable comparison, always lead with Favre ;)
He made some mistakes in how he handled it, but has tried to continually keep the problem between him and the organization...and not the fans.
That's where I definitely think George blew it the other day reacting in an exasperated fashion; but I think it was just short-temper rather than indicative of disrespect toward his fans.
The best advice I would give him is to be a little more apologetic even now, but pride is a powerful force.
The only problem with that analogy, Silent, is that while Favre did do something "wrong," George hasn't. Nowhere did he announce that Dance was finished. Nowhere. How can it be his fault if people are idiots?
In fact, if you look at the post in question, the very first poster set the trend. Saxster. Then Arjans made it a bit worse. The worst came from dreezyfosheezy followed by SirMatthew. It had to do with them and not George that misled people
It only takes one or two idiots to lead all of the rest, apparently. haha
As for the "he posted the cover, he deserves the rancor" comments, he almost always posts the Dragon cover when he writes a post about it. In fact, he usually posts covers about all of his projects if he is posting news about them. This is no different.
And as far as his "No, No, No" post, I still fail to see where he slaps down his fans with disrespect? He says, "No, No, No." No exclamation points. He tells people to "calm down." They should. He shares why that's why he hates doing updates. Understandable. The rest of the post is wholly innocuous. The aggravated icon he used is fine too; that's what he was feeling at that moment.
No where did he chastise the fans. Or am I missing something entirely?
On the subject of that last blog post, I can see why people leapt to conclusions. The recent news (in the Bantam catalogue about the 2011 ASoIaF calendar they had listed) about how ASoIaF's American sales (3.5 million) have boomed in the last few years was rather enlightening: an almost 30% rise in sales (American sales alone, much more worldwide) of the series in the last two-to-three years (since a Valyrian Steel press release gave the previous one of 2.2 million). That means a LOT of new readers who weren't around when AFFC was completed and could see GRRM's completely unambiguous message announcing AFFC's completion.
For the record, that was a big picture of the AFFC cover filling most of the blog entry with "IT'S DONE!!!" written in huge letters underneath. I think GRRM might have been assuming that people would realise something similar would happen with ADWD and wouldn't take anything short of that so seriously. But a lot of readers weren't around for that and don't know about it, just as a lot of newer readers only have the note in the back in the back of AFFC (which, insanely, still says that ADWD will be out, "Next year," four years on), come onto the Internet confused about what's going on and then get shot down in various places. It's all contributing to the misinformation/PR-not-handled-as-well-as-it-could-have-been situation.
"Tolkien did have the concern of bombs dropping on his head y'know."
Not in Oxford, he didn't. The city was never bombed, and after the conclusion of the Blitz in May 1941 (as most of the Luftwaffe was pulled out to support the invasion of Russia) even the threat of air raids vanished.
"Tolkien took a long time, but he also had none of the benefits of today's word processing equipment."
Neither did C.S. Lewis, who churned out seven NARNIA books in half the time Tolkien took to produce LORD OF THE RINGS.
Neither does GRRM, actually, as his word processor is about thirty years old and still runs on a DOS-based machine lacking even a WYSIWYG interface. Take out the laborious writing of mini-code every time he wants to put something in italics and the entire series would probably have been completed five years ago ;-)
"Feast also started out years in the future with the Stark kids older and all plotlines very different. George wrote for 1 1/2 years on that storyline before canning it all, knowing it wouldn't work. He then started over."
Well, FEAST didn't start out there, no. The original Post-Gap Book 4 was entitled A DANCE WITH DRAGONS and was what GRRM started work on in early 2000 and junked in August 2001 before introducing FEAST. Also, from the look of it the plotlines weren't 'very different', he'd simply skipped over some storylines which in retrospect GRRM felt (rightly or wrongly) needed to be told in full, mostly involving events in Dorne and the Iron Islands. At the very end of AFFC and going into ADWD, GRRM appears to be in the process of linking up the 'in-gap' stories he originally wanted to skip with the 'post-gap' stories which he'd already mapped out a decade ago when he started writing the Post-Gap iteration of ADWD. This is almost certainly contributing to the Meereenese Knot situation.
Sawn said "The only problem with that analogy, Silent, is that while Favre did do something "wrong," George hasn't. Nowhere did he announce that Dance was finished. Nowhere. How can it be his fault if people are idiots?"
You're kidding right? Surely writing in the back a a half-completed book (feast) that the OTHER half of the book that people actually thought they were buying was nearly finished and would be avilable soon, when it clearly was not nearly finished and wouldn't be available anytime soon not something just a little bit "wrong". George and his apologists can flower it up all they like but that page at the end of Feast was a lie, maybe he didnt mean it maliciously and I know ALL the excuses about re-writes and gardening etc etc but it was still a falsehood. Surely that counts as "wrong'?
No, its not Georges fault many people are idiots... but he's done an excellent job of making sure its only idiots that are allowed to post on his blog because anyone who has half a brain has been banned from posting.
As for your second point, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see George disrespecting his fans at all. I see fans being idiots and George calling them out. That's his right. If those fans don't like it, they don't have to read his blog. Pretty simple, really. Nowhere on his site does it say "you can bash the author and he will just take it in the arse."
My main point was actually that the comparison to Tolkien that you and many other people make is so deeply flawed as to be almost laughable, but I do actually agree that when fans are being idiots George has every right to call them out on it, but that should go both ways there are as many idiot apologists as there are detractors, and George NEVER actually looks at things from the reasonable detractors POV. Its very easy to use the argument technique you have here, no-one is suggesting that we want to bash George and expect him to take it up the arse, anymore than any reasonable people thought he “is our bitch”, that’s not what we expect.. We do expect respect and not to be treated like fools.
A perfect example of how to interact with your fans IMO is Pat Rothfuss and Joe Abercrombie, Pat is well behind in his book as we all know, but there is none of this animosity to him because he treats his fans properly.. he laughs with them and doesn’t try and sell to them all the time. Joe is the same, though he doesn’t have delays, he works hard and still finds time to blog about interesting stuff… George uses his blog shamelessly to sell stuff, that’s fine, that’s his right, but by god it makes him out to be a used car salesman for the most part. As another poster here said, that’s not unethical as such, but its very slimey
Adam Said
"Not in Oxford, he didn't. The city was never bombed, and after the conclusion of the Blitz in May 1941 (as most of the Luftwaffe was pulled out to support the invasion of Russia) even the threat of air raids vanished"
My response: So what, the whole of England was in a state of mortal peril for much of that period. George doesnt seem to be able to write if his kitchen is being remodelled so I would suggest if the US was under threat of extinction we'd not be expecting him to be creative. Are you truly suggesting the comparisons still stands just because Oxford itself didnt get bombed? I've heard you and others use the second world war and the fact he wasnt teaching during that period as if it was a creative sabbatical that Tolkien was taking. It beggars belief.
ADAM SAID
"Neither did C.S. Lewis, who churned out seven NARNIA books in half the time Tolkien took to produce LORD OF THE RINGS.
My response:
Again, So what, I am not comparing Martin to Abercrombie and saying because Abercrombie can write a book a year then Martin should be able to as well. This deflective kind of argument is childish. That CS Lewis wrote faster than Tolkien should not mean that we can compare MArtin and Tolkien situation just because others in Martin's generation can write faster. It's truly baffles me how you guys can use this comparison...
ADAM SAID :
"Neither does GRRM, actually, as his word processor is about thirty years old and still runs on a DOS-based machine lacking even a WYSIWYG interface. Take out the laborious writing of mini-code every time he wants to put something in italics and the entire series would probably have been completed five years ago ;-)"
I would suggest that a DOS based machine is still somewhat faster than hand writing and getting it typed up later. Again, clutching at straws to keep the Tolkien-Martin comparison valid in my opinion.
Shawn, I like you man, really I do. You seem like a very nice guy and, as a fellow writer, I enjoy reading the updates on your book progress. You are friendly and inviting with your fans and I sincerely hope that if you become a published and respected author in the fantasy genre, as I suspect you one day will, that you don't fall victim to hubris and arrogance and lose those personable communication skills.
That said, I'm afraid that you are simply off the mark in your defense of GRRM. Way off the mark. I'm not one of the froth-at-the-mouth detractors, but you both miss the point of why people are angry and trip over yourself to defend the man.
First, we are not angry just because of the delays in writing the book. We are angry about the way we have been treated as readers. Legitimately upset about being misled about publication dates and progress, while being peddled wares and inadequate excuses, we also have to deal with condescending remarks when we air these legitimate grievances. You seem to concede that the broken promises and missed deadlines are adequate reasons to be upset. Yet, even as you admirably attempt to debate this point with reason, the most we seem to get from you is condescending remarks such as "take off the blinders" or "Ryan, Ryan, Ryan. Would you PLEASE answer the hypothetical question. You haven't. haha"
Shawn, with all due respect, if anyone is wearing blinders it is you. You are an aspiring author in the fantasy genre who is desperate to be seen as an insider. You work for Terry Brooks and admit to having been to GRRM's house. How, then, can you profess to lack bias and claim to be objective when you are hanging out with the very man you are defending? Like Neil Gaiman, you are looking out for one of your own. That's fine, and I get it. But readers without connections like yours are coming from a totally different viewpoint, and have less to lose from some public admonishment.
Secondly, I'll answer your hypothetical. Sure, anyone who writes 6 hours a day, everyday, deserves to be cut some slack. But Ryan's point still stands, how are we to believe that's what George is doing when his blog entries suggest otherwise?
I draw your attention to one of your earlier posts and the associated comments, for two reasons: http://www.suvudu.com/2010/01/a-first-look-the-adventure-of-the-princess-and-mr-whiffle.html#comments
1) "I thought for sure he'd finish it in 2009, based on talking to him, his editor, and where he was at in the process. But him leaving to watch the pilot shoot and traveling around Europe removed more than a month from his writing schedule. For that, I can forgive him, since the pilot shoot is something wholly unique and should be experienced."
I'm sure you can forgive him for this, and for many other things, because you are his friend. Most of the rest of us are not. The only relationship we have with him is a removed one of author-reader, and frankly it is a one way street in which we have not been respected. He may not be our "bitch," but nor should we be expected to be his, the perpetual bootlickers at NAB notwithstanding.
Granted, perhaps the pilot is a unique experience as you contend. But what about the various cons, traveling abroad, book signings etc.? Your response might be something along the lines of "the man has other things to do with his life." Fine, but that is beside the point. Don't try to sell me on the fact that the man is writing 6 hours a day, everday, when that appears to be demonstrably false.
2) "If George only had -- at most -- 100 pages left to write at the end of 2009, then he must be able to complete the book by June 2010. If he does, that will put him at a Fall/November release at the latest. If he can't finish those 100 pages by June, I will firmly jump behind every single person on this planet that is screaming from the highest tree tops that he has lost his way."
Shawn, it is now February 2010. Absent some other excuse on your part, expect to be held to this in four months time if Dance is not finished.
Finally, Shawn, I apologize if the tone of this seems confrontational. You openly invited responses, and seem to complain that all you get are trolls. I hope you find this to be something more intelligent. I only wish that, looking at this situation not just as a writer, but as a reader, you could see that it goes beyond missed deadlines and speaks to basic elements of respect which we fans, who are not a simple minority as you would have your readers believe, have not received from an author we used to admire. I hope you remember that if you ever get published.
Craterus: "You're kidding right? Surely writing in the back a a half-completed book (feast) that the OTHER half of the book that people actually thought they were buying was nearly finished and would be avilable soon, when it clearly was not nearly finished and wouldn't be available anytime soon not something just a little bit "wrong". George and his apologists can flower it up all they like but that page at the end of Feast was a lie, maybe he didnt mean it maliciously and I know ALL the excuses about re-writes and gardening etc etc but it was still a falsehood. Surely that counts as "wrong'?"
Yes, it does. It surely was wrong. I wasn't talking about that, as I was responding to the recent thread of "No, No, No." That's where George did no wrong. But if one thinks on it, the mistake/lie George did in 2004/05 is ancient history. And yet you are still quibbling about it? The man has screwed up twice -- as Adam pointed out, the original Dance that would get pushed aside for what would become Feast, and George's belief that the second Dance was almost finished and going to publish within a year of Feast's release.
Everything else that is brought up by the angry fans as reasons for Dance taking longer (football, merchandising, vacations, anthologies, writer's block) have no basis in fact at all. They are used to rationalize the mostly irrational anger people have at the book being late. Plain and simple.
Joe: Nice to know you are the one following my own book's progress. Thank you. :)
Now, on to your well thought out comments.
"Legitimately upset about being misled about publication dates and progress"
First, I've said repeatedly that people have every right to be upset about being misled. I've never contradicted that. I too am angry about it. George learned his lesson from it. He'll never do it again. So either forgive him for it, or stop reading the man. It's that simple. Or am I wrong in that? I'm a very black and white type. :)
"while being peddled wares and inadequate excuses"
Peddling wares is his prerogative. If you don't like it, don't read those posts. Don't buy his other things. He is allowed to do that and it doesn't take away from his writing of Dance.
As for inadequate excuses? I don't understand. Him wanting to write the best book possible isn't an adequate excuse?
"Yet, even as you admirably attempt to debate this point with reason, the most we seem to get from you is condescending remarks such as "take off the blinders" or "Ryan, Ryan, Ryan. Would you PLEASE answer the hypothetical question. You haven't. haha""
First, when did I use the word blinders? I didn't even know that word was in my vocabulary. haha
Second, what was condescending about my comment? I think you are reading into it. I want people to answer the questions I ask and answer them honestly. They don't, if you've noticed, because they know they won't like the answers usually.
"How, then, can you profess to lack bias and claim to be objective when you are hanging out with the very man you are defending?"
As I've said elsewhere -- maybe you missed it up above -- that I've been defending George long before I read him, long before I even met him, long before I even began working for Random House. Bias is not the reason I choose to write these comments. I write these posts because I care about the truth. Sadly, since the majority of people don't know what it means to be a writer, they don't see the things I see. I guess I am a terrible writer because I can't seem to explain those aspects to this argument in the right way (ie. he is at the crux of his tale, the most critical moment, and the things in Dance need to be laid down perfectly for the whole series to work as a whole, hence the reason for it taking so long). That's my failing that I am trying to remedy.
"have less to lose from some public admonishment."
Less to lose? I've publicly called George a liar, or at the least a freewriter who can't figure out where he is going. haha In doing so I've probably screwed myself out of a dust jacket blurb, a review on his well-traveled blog, a visit to The Signed Page which would make me money, and not to mention all of you who probably will never pick up my book because I've alienated you with my particular stance. haha
But as I've said, I call a spade a spade. I'd rather sleep well at night for what I believe that curtail my opinions for anyone. It's just the Scorpio in me, I guess.
"But Ryan's point still stands, how are we to believe that's what George is doing when his blog entries suggest otherwise?"
Blog entries take minutes to write. So do emails back to his "business" partners. These don't take away from his writing time. Besides, every single writer I've befriended over the years except for one -- Steven Erikson -- can't write for 14 hours. Usually they can't write, on average, past 6 hours. That leaves the rest of the day when they can't write because it will be terrible, time when they can answer emails, update a website, etc. As you've all noticed, other writers do these very same things every day and come out with books on time, these people even being freewriters. Ergo, his time spent on his blog is not the issue. It's something else, right?
That something else is the critical part of the story that must be laid down just right.
You guys should be excited that he is investing so much time into it instead of wanting the alternative -- a crappy book and finale to the series.
"Granted, perhaps the pilot is a unique experience as you contend. But what about the various cons, traveling abroad, book signings etc.? Your response might be something along the lines of "the man has other things to do with his life."
It actually has nothing to do with his life. Part of George going to these different avenues is 1) he needs to recharge his batteries and time away from writing helps the creative planning process that loose freewriters need, and 2) he has business obligations that require him to go to these things. Again, I see things with the additional information I have about the industry that most don't. Perhaps that's why I am more understanding than the "detractors."
"Shawn, it is now February 2010. Absent some other excuse on your part, expect to be held to this in four months time if Dance is not finished."
That's fine. And as I said in that post, I'll be frothing mad rabies-like right along with the rest of you at the end of June if the book isn't done. 6 months to write 100 or even 200 pages should be a cakewalk, particularly since he's been mulling these storylines and characters for years now.
I might also point out, that in late late July he passed the 1000 page mark. On October 6th, he passed 1100. It took him 2 months to write 100 pages. The man is getting work done. Many of you guys seem to think he isn't. Then he left for the pilot and now he seems to be right back at it, having completed two different chapters? Or more? I can't remember now. Again, the point is he is working. Shouldn't that be something to celebrate rather than tear down?
Shawn said “Yes, it does. It surely was wrong. I wasn't talking about that, as I was responding to the recent thread of "No, No, No." That's where George did no wrong. But if one thinks on it, the mistake/lie George did in 2004/05 is ancient history. And yet you are still quibbling about it? The man has screwed up twice -- as Adam pointed out, the original Dance that would get pushed aside for what would become Feast, and George's belief that the second Dance was almost finished and going to publish within a year of Feast's release.”
My response: fair enough if you were just referring to the recent post then George didn’t do much wrong other than act like a child for being aggravated when some of his fans got over enthusiastic. However, “quibbling” is a fairly dismissive term for a 4/5 year wait. And its not twice he’s screwed up, its every time he’s mislead his fan base with a completion date that was not just incorrect, but down right dishonest.
Shawn said” “Everything else that is brought up by the angry fans as reasons for Dance taking longer (football, merchandising, vacations, anthologies, writer's block) have no basis in fact at all. They are used to rationalize the mostly irrational anger people have at the book being late.”
My response: Again you are dismissing the mostly rational and intelligent arguments that we have all put forward because of a vocal and childish minority of detractors who (for eg) use George being overweight as a reason to slander him. If this post has shown you anything, it has surely shown you that there are a lot of intelligent people who are on the opposite side of the debate to you and we can’t all be dismissed as irrational.
Joe said: “Shawn, it is now February 2010. Absent some other excuse on your part, expect to be held to this in four months time if Dance is not finished.”
My response: Well said on this and all your post Joe, Shawn, will you stand by what you said if/when Dance is not done before June?
Shawn, I decided to take your advice, post the questions and your answers on my blog and then post my own thoughts on it all. I couldn't work out any other way to contact you than through here. Anyway if you want to have a look please be my guest.
Although I know you don't agree with this that 'haha' thing you post when you disagree with someone is really annoying. It looks like the internet equivalent of a child sticking their tongue out when they can't come up with a comeback.
Elfy
Craterus: "George didn’t do much wrong other than act like a child for being aggravated when some of his fans got over enthusiastic."
Again, I don't see him acting like a child. I must have missed something. The only thing I saw is his "No, No, No" post. There is nothing in that post of George treating anyone like a child. If you know of something else that I've missed, definitely give me a link so I can read it.
"And its not twice he’s screwed up, its every time he’s mislead his fan base with a completion date that was not just incorrect, but down right dishonest."
Again, show me the links to those blog posts. I've only read the two that were hard dates. I'm sure Adam knows them and can supply them. It wasn't until late 2005/early 2006, when a year had passed after Feast was published and no Dragons was finished, did he stop doing it. At times he's said he hopes to finish by the end of a year, but those aren't set dates and he's always added "take this with a grain of salt" comments. Go back and read his February 19, 2009 post, for instance.
Two quotes:
"Being wrong is not the same as lying. Since the very beginning of this series, I have been guilty of being over-optimistic about how long it would take me to finish the next book, the next chapter, or the series as a whole. I cannot deny that."
He fully admits it.
"That's the main reason why I no longer want to give any completion dates. I am sick and tired of people jumping down my throat when I miss them."
Again, telling the fans that he no longer will give completion dates because he's finally wised up.
This gets back to one of my previous posts: You guys need to start taking on some responsibility here. Even if he has said numerous dates of completion, why do you keep trusting him on it if all of them have been broken? It's lunacy, I tell ya.
"Again you are dismissing the mostly rational and intelligent arguments that we have all put forward because of a vocal and childish minority of detractors who (for eg) use George being overweight as a reason to slander him."
I ask again, what are you particularly stances for your continued wroth? He has said the book will be done twice and he was mistaken. You feel betrayed by those two times and you should -- although they happened so long ago I don't understand why it hasn't been forgiven yet. What other points do you have other than that? Bullet point them so I can see them.
Elfy: "Although I know you don't agree with this that 'haha' thing you post when you disagree with someone is really annoying."
I purely put "haha" down to try to lighten the mood. I will stop doing it if you feel it is me being condescending. I use very direct language at times and it can make people even more mad if I don't try to lighten it up. I'll forgo it now.
Craterus: "Well said on this and all your post Joe, Shawn, will you stand by what you said if/when Dance is not done before June?"
I don't know what you expect me to do/say if that point comes at the end of June, but I'm more than willing to admit that if George can't get 100-200 pages done by July 1st that there truly is something wrong and his other endeavors are cutting into his writing.
Shawn said:"I ask again, what are you particularly stances for your continued wroth? He has said the book will be done twice and he was mistaken. You feel betrayed by those two times and you should -- although they happened so long ago I don't understand why it hasn't been forgiven yet. What other points do you have other than that? Bullet point them so I can see them"
I for one don't feel wroth as such, I know others are angrier than I but I shall definitely bullet point/summarise the reasons I and many others feel George is being totally disrespectful. Just got to head to work now but didnt want to leave without acknowledging your response. I'll get back to you.
He didn't do anything wrong? Shawn he did everything wrong….
If you reread my first post it tells you my thoughts. With that being said the first thing people see with his "no, no, no" post is an angry typewriter. It's visual, it draws your eyes to it, and it sets the tone for the post. It says, "I'm angry". The no, no, no is something that parents say to children, or pet owners say to their pets all while wagging their fingers at them. Everything else is him chastising his readers . So he's either screwing with people or he's trying to generate buzz take your pick…
GRRM is a business of one, he creates a product that many people desire. Correct? Once you start viewing him from the standpoint of a business then you see that his NAB is a vehicle to craft his image. You may know him personally so your view may be different, but to the majority his blog will be the closest they ever come to knowing him.
Anyone whose run a business know that you deal with complaints from time to time. It's inevitable. You do damage control, you apologize, you tell them you'll take care of the problem, you never blame the customer though. His last post was none of that it was more or less a dressing down of his readers for being stupid. Perhaps GRRM tried to damage control in the beginning with all his failed deadlines, but he should have just told everyone he didn't know when he'd be done because of problems he's run into. I know that's what he's doing now, but it's too late.
I'll use Windows Vista as an example. Lets say that you waited for Vista to become available, and you wait at your favorite electronics store for it to open so you can be the first person to buy it. You buy it, go home, read the directions, and install it. Once you've rebooted your computer a letter pops up and says, "Sorry but all those innovations that you were expecting to be on this software aren't because we had problems. Don't worry though because we'll have an update within the year…" How many people would be running around telling others, "Bill Gates isn't your bitch!"? Not many.
That's kind of how I felt about Feast for Crows. That letter in the back was essentially an admission that he put out a subpar product. He knew people would be disappointed when they were finished reading…there's no other reason to put that letter in the book. If anything it should have been reworded a little and put in the front of the book, not hidden in the back…
Waiting 5 years for a book like aDwD is nothing, and I don't think that by itself is the cause of all the anger on the web. Along with the botched letter in the back he set a deadline that aDwD would be done within a year, and even included a preview of the book. That created instant buzz, so instead of people moving on and forgetting about GRRM they anxiously waited, and waited, and waited, and...
GRRM may be the hardest working, most dedicated author out there right now, but he's perceived entirely differently. An online presence comes with expectations, doesn't it? Whether the expectations are realistic or not doesn’t change the fact that they exist. So he can blog about what ever he wants, but what he blogs about will inevitably shape how people perceive him.
It's obvious that he loves football, the books he edits, his miniature toys, and such…but when it comes to aSoIaF, what people are most passionate about he seems….annoyed even disgruntled when he's bothered about the progress of the series. Void is all the passion of everything else he blogs about. Because of that, people assume he doesn't care about the series. They wonder whether or not he's working on a series that was supposed to be almost done. That's the perception he's created…
Talking about passion…that's why so many people love Brett Favre, and why so many think he can do no wrong. When you watch Favre you see a person who is as passionate or even more so than you. When he makes a big play or a bad one you can see his emotions on his face. Love him or hate him you can't say he's just showing up waiting for his next paycheck. Compare that with GRRM who once wrote something like, "some people enjoy writing, I enjoy having written." , and you can see a lack of passion, remember perception is reality….so GRRM has done a fine job of crafting the image of someone who procrastinates and doesn't like to write…
Shawn, doesn’t that qualify as doing something wrong?
****Shawn I hope we can continue to debate, but if not I'd like to say thanks for taking the time to reply to my post.****
Mr. Speakman:
I freely admit that I am one of Martin's detractors, so my following comments are admittedly biased. In your original post, you mentioned the following;
"Not. At. All.
This is one of those hot points for me. I have read so many fans write that they are only interested in updates to A Song of Ice & Fire and, in their opinion, there is no reason for George to waste time writing about anything else on his blog. That sounds all fine and dandy, except these people forget two points: [...]"
It is true that if Martin has a contractual *duty* to notify his readers of any and all new merchandise that is being produced, then he should do so. However, his failing here is in apparently not realizing how it would appear to visitors to his site, especially new readers, when combined with the lack of updates from early 2008 to about mid 2009 (excepting that grudging, backhanded 'update' of February 2008) and the pervasive censoring of his blog.
Imagine the following situation: one of the many new readers Adam Whitehead mentioned, unknowing of the Dance situation, finishes Feast in late 2008. He goes to Amazon to find out about Dance, then, when realizing the book isn't published - in contradiction with what that unfortunate note of Martin's at the end of Feast -, he goes to Martin's website. He sees an old update at the page for that purpose, so heads on to Martin's blog.
There, he is puzzled to see the equivalent of a perpetual infomercial channel for new books and merchandise for ASOIAF and other series, while seeing virtually nothing about Dance. So he registers, goes to the newest thread of all, and makes a polite inquiry about Dance... only to be mocked and jeered by sycophants, before seeing his post summarily deleted and himself banned.
IMO that's not how a writer who cares about his fans should act, or allow others to act on his behalf. Even if all the difficulties about Dance's writing are true and Martin is obligated to advertise, nothing excuses his woeful behavior toward his readers for about a year and a half, when to all appearances for visitors to his blog he was a two-headed man, with the first head saying "Please buy all the ASOIAF merchandise I advertise, as that will make me very happy" and the second head adding "But don't you DARE ask me how the next ASOIAF book is progressing, because that will make me angry and I'll delete your post and ban you!"
How do you imagine that fan, unknowing of all that's transpired before and of Martin's contractual obligations, feels? Can you blame him if he concludes that Martin is a greedy bastard who just wants his ASOIAF fans to sit down and shut up like dogs - except when comes the time to buy the latest bit of ASOIAF merchandise he's advertising, at which point he would like them to stand up, wag their tails happily, and paw over money?
To elaborate on the popular catchphrase of Neil Gaiman's (flawed) argument: GRRM is not our bitch, but neither are we readers his. And from early 2008 to mid-2009, at the very least, that's how he treated us. Which, regardless of his difficulties with writing Dance, is inexcusable.
Silent:
So you are angry about George's comment from last week because:
1) He showed an angry typewriter picture.
2) He put "No, No, No."
I have to be honest. That is a super weak argument. You are completely reading into something here to try and support your anger. I could show the very same blog post to 100 people who don't know who George is and I guarantee 100 of them would say, "he's informing his fans Dance isn't done. Why did they think it was done, anyway?"
Ever hear the old adage "let him without sin throw the first stone?"
You all are leaping on him like crazed baboons whenever he writes anything that can be taken either way, even though in this situation I really don't think it can be. I sit here and I read that post and I see not animosity toward his fans at all! I see a man exasperated by his fans and well he should be. The terrible comments that have been said about him that have no basis in fact hurt the man! He is human! Remember that? He's not a robot, just pounding on keys for your benefit.
Nowhere in his original post did he say that Dance was done. Nowhere.
On top of that, in the past, he has repeatedly said that he would announce such an event TO HIGH HOLY HEAVEN. There WILL BE no ambiguity about it. None. Zero. Zilch. Did that post from last week look like HIGH HOLY HEAVEN to you? No. Of course not! Even you can't say it did. Are you ignoring those previous times when George said he'd sing it to HIGH HEAVEN? Yes you are. Those fans who mistook what George had said needed to be told they were wrong. He didn't lead up with any cushy "I'm sorry you all mistook" comment; if you also notice, he also didn't say "look, you all are frickin' idiots!" The message is wholly neutral and you are seeing things that just aren't there to support your anger.
If that's George being disrespectful, then we should let this argument just go. I don't see it. At all.
"It's obvious that he loves football, the books he edits, his miniature toys, and such…but when it comes to aSoIaF, what people are most passionate about he seems….annoyed even disgruntled when he's bothered about the progress of the series. Void is all the passion of everything else he blogs about. Because of that, people assume he doesn't care about the series. They wonder whether or not he's working on a series that was supposed to be almost done. That's the perception he's created…"
If you'll remember, the fans are at fault for this. Sure, people got angry that George mistook his deadline, and they have every right to be angry. George took all of that anger and didn't censor it. But a huge group of fans took that anger and immediately said to themselves, "I can criticize George about everything now." So as the book got later and later, those same people starting using everything that George posted on his blog against him -- including his updates on Dance.
It got so bad that George wrote a tirade blog post about it, began censoring, and said he'd never talk about Dance again.
Rather than the fans jumping all over those jerk fans with their card, they turned on George for stopping updates.
In short, no matter what he does, he gets criticized for it.
Do you think that is right? Honestly, do you?
Because I think George is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. That's not fair at all in my opinion, just from a human being stand point. And all because he missed a deadline?
No, the fans need to take ownership of this.
""some people enjoy writing, I enjoy having written.""
Show me the proof where he says this. I won't believe it until I see the actual quote on his blog or interview or whatever in the context it was delivered.
Krafus: Wow. "Mr. Speakman." Only people like my boss use that terminology and it only happens when I am about to be reprimanded. I must be getting scolded now by Krafus!
Yes, that was a joke. I am lame at humor.
Maybe the fans who do know why he stopped updating about Dance should share their information with those new fans, eh? As I said in my response to Silent, the fans who took their freebie card and ran with it are at fault that George doesn't update anymore. The man is a human being and having shyte thrown at him every time he updates about the book is beyond standability. In fact, I'm surprised he is updating his fans as much as he is right now, given the past. Maybe those of you angry about him not updating should actually be happy he is updating, eh?
[i]Maybe the fans who do know why he stopped updating about Dance should share their information with those new fans, eh?[/i]
Maybe we would, if we hadn't been banned from Martin's blog because we once dared politely inquire how Dance was progressing, or witnessed the fate of those who did that, i.e. jeering from sycophants, deletion of one's post and banning.
[i]Maybe those of you angry about him not updating should actually be happy he is updating, eh?[/i]
Even if Martin is now updating, his blog is still a hostile environment for any and all dissenters, with the banhammer perpetually hanging over such people's heads, while rude sycophants earn, at worst, a polite slap on the wrist. I don't know about other people, but this isn't the kind of place I'd feel comfortable posting at.
Then don't post there, Krafus. Then don't read George R. R. Martin. If you are so sure in how he has treated you so badly, why keep reading him? Why keep arguing against him on forums? I don't understand.
This has to be the worst case of a codependent relationship I've ever seen.
Or perhaps it is mere spite? I don't know.
For me, I don't see him acting any differently than I would on my own blog. I mean that in all sincerity. Hate me if you wish. The moment people start slandering me, they are done. I've had to deal with it on Terry's forum for ten years whenever someone decides to flame me or another of our thousands of members rather than discuss things rationally. You know what? That forum runs like smooth silk because we've built a culture there that simply does not condone it - on topics like George, religion, politics, etc.
Do you think George bans people who keep their cool? People who say, "I'm sad the book isn't done. Get on it!" or "Please write as quickly as you can. I can't wait for the book and you are starting to make me mad!" or even this post from last week criticizing him:
When you leave your legions of loyal fans waiting for years, you should not be exasperated when they take any sign of progress as worthy of adulation. Frankly, I learned many years ago that the book would be done when I saw it on a shelf for purchase.
Nevertheless, to say I am disappointed in the long wait would be an understatement. Let me be clear, you don't owe me another book. You also do not owe me any explanation for why it is taking you so long to complete the next work in your series. However, what you have said on this blog, and what you have done many times over on this same platform, often is not consistent. Do this, you owe it to your true fans and to yourself to stop updating on DoD until you are 100 percent finished.
Did George ban that person for calling him out? No. He doesn't. I can point at these comments right now on his Forum and they are still there, those posters not banned. Obviously mrrodgers81's criticism is still there and he's not banned. That's a real case scenario of George not doing the very thing you are accusing him of.
George bans those who go over the edge. That much is clear. Those people who go over the edge -- who hide behind their online anonymity and who would never have the gall to say such things to his face -- deserve to be held accountable.
You obviously disagree. You feel like you should be able to say anything you like whenever you like. We just simply are not going to agree on that topic. Sorry. It is what it is.
Onwards and upwards! No hard feelings on my part, of course. As I wrote today on my post, I love these kinds of discussions. It's good for the soul to get it out in the open.
Shawn,
Thanks for responding. Yep, I'm a fan of yours. And, you know, part of the reason I'm a fan is because you take the time to talk to people. It's a great trait and I sincerely hope you hang onto that if you should make it.
I don't mean to belabor this too much, because in spite of lots of back and forth, at the end of the day we'll probably still be in different places. But we've had some constructive dialogue, so, I'm willing to continue along. I have some responses to your new points:
"First, I've said repeatedly that people have every right to be upset about being misled. I've never contradicted that. I too am angry about it. George learned his lesson from it. He'll never do it again...Again, show me the links to those blog posts. I've only read the two that were hard dates"
Well, it depends on what your definition of a "hard date" is, but GRRM has given us at least four potential "finish" dates by my count. You can read them on Wikipedia and,yes, it is reliable if you follow the citations: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADWD#Delays_in_publication
"First, when did I use the word blinders? I didn't even know that word was in my vocabulary. haha"
I believe it was in the comments section of your "In Defense of GRRM" post. In fact, yes, it was. I just checked: http://www.suvudu.com/2009/01/in-defense-of-george-r-r-marti.html
"I guess I am a terrible writer because I can't seem to explain those aspects to this argument in the right way (ie. he is at the crux of his tale, the most critical moment, and the things in Dance need to be laid down perfectly for the whole series to work as a whole, hence the reason for it taking so long). That's my failing that I am trying to remedy."
I think you are selling yourself short. You are not at all a terrible writer. I understand what you are saying perfectly, as I'm sure many others do. We just don't agree with you. Being articulate doesn't always mean you are going to convince others of your point of view.
"Blog entries take minutes to write. So do emails back to his "business" partners. These don't take away from his writing time. "
Fair enough, although I think you misunderstand. I'm not complaining about the blog entries in and of themselves, so much, as the contents therein that suggest George is engaged in many other activities besides writing Dance.
Now, you can raise as defenses that he is contractually obligated to do those things, or entitled to have a life outside his writing. That's fine, I don't even necessarily disagree. What I took issue with was your suggestion that he is writing "6 hours a day, everyday, for 5 years." I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe. In fact, I don't believe it at all. You'll need some harder evidence than a hypothetical to convince me of it.
Shawn, I'll even concede some points here. I also write; as a hobby, not a profession, so I don't depend on it for an income. To that extent I might even write in much the same way you describe GRRM. I don't write everyday and take long breaks for the muse to inspire me, don't necessarily outline before I start writing, and engage in painstaking rewrites. I've been writing for years and only recently got to a point where agents and editors are willing to look at my book. I can't imagine doing the same thing with public pressure the way George, and other published authors, have. I still have a long way to go which, frankly, is one of the reasons I love your blog. You do a great job of articulating for people the painful writing process from conception to (hopefully) publication.
But all this stuff is besides the point. Fans are not mad because of the way George writes but because of the way they've been treated. This is not a small and vocal minority, otherwise it would not have spread upon the Internet like trolls from Mordor, as you, Neil Gaiman, and many others seem to describe it. It is a substantial group of people who love the story and characters and admire the man's writing, or at least used to.
I don't hate GRRM. In fact, I'm a recent fan but also a huge one. That's what pains me about this more than anything else. I had an experience much like the one Krafus described. After reading the first three books, which I considered three of the best fantasy books ever written, I even wrote a letter to George telling him how much those books inspired me. That's true to this day, even though that letter went unanswered, lol.
That was last year, and it was before I picked up AFFC. I never did finish that book because it was about a bunch of characters I didn't care about (or didn't recognize) and there was a noticeable drop in the quality of the writing. In search of answers, I turned to George's website and blog where I witnessed what everyone had been complaining about but I had never truly understood. I am just thankful that I've only had to endure it for one year. When I think of those that have endured it for nearly a decade, I understand why blogs like "Finish the Book, George" sprang up.
Now, is the fan response to GRRM immature and childish? Yes, the vast majority of it. The trolls are certainly to share in the blame. But shouldn't we also hold George, as the author and owner of the universe, accountable as well? I find it hard to believe that his defenders often resort to "GRRM is not your bitch" or "he doesn't owe you anything" as defenses. George's attitude towards most of his fan base, in everything from fan fiction down to his NAB, has been terrible. Even in his recent "No, No, No" post, it appears as if the sycophants are not beyond a little scorn. We can agree to disagree on that, but I think it stands in stark contrast to what I see as examples of good author-reader relationships, ranging from a megastar like JK Rowling to a relative unknown such as yourself. That is how authors should treat their fans, not like GRRM has.
There has to be some level of accountability for that. I liken it to the whole notion that Batman's presence in Gotham attracts criminals. At some point, even if you perceive yourself, or are perceived by others, as the hero, you have to look at the situation and ask yourself "how much of this am I responsible for?"
OK, I think two nerd analogies is my max. Shawn, the reason I wrote to YOU more than anybody is because I really like your blog and I sincerely wish you well in your endeavors. Just don't turn into another creative person with a God complex if your fiction meets with some success. I hope you see where I'm coming from on that front. Keep writing!
Hat tip to Shawn… I actually thought that you'd debate me on the entire context of what I meant, and not just what I wrote in that post. My mistake. Good job my friend, and well played. However, I think you've got me wrong because I'm not angry, and I'm not a GRRM hater either. He can do whatever the hell he wants, and I could care less, but that doesn't change the fact that he's been a PR disaster.
I love to debate within the realm of ideas. I think people have a right to be frustrated. They have a right to question. Does GRRM hold a monopoly on being criticized? Is he the only one whose being closely scrutinized? Of course not. That would just be thinking silly, Shawn. As far as the spamming of Pat's Fantasy Hotlist goes, if anyone's overreacting, I think it's the bloggers. I read the comments and it seems to me that a couple 14-15 year old boys got into dad's whiskey cabinet, and decided to do what all teenage boys do, create mayhem. The bloggers have tried to make a mountain out of a mole hill. You try to group every frustrated fan and try to caricaturize them as the people that spammed his site. There you go, that's one more reason why people are frustrated….
You wanted a link to the quote I posted yesterday? Honestly, I didn't think that I'd be able to find it because I read it a long time ago; however, a quick Google search of less than 5 minutes proved me wrong. The actual quote is:
"And besides, you can't imagine how good it feels to have finished something.
Some writers enjoy writing, I am told. Not me. I enjoy having written."
http://grrm.livejournal.com/69850.html?thread=5198554
Spin that quote however you want, and I'm sure you're going to try. However, if you can't agree with me that that quote looks REALLY bad, if you can't agree with me on that simple quote, then I think you lose all credibility…
On to defending myself…..
Ok Shawn… You either have no idea how advertising/marketing works, or you just want to make me look stupid….probably both huh? I would recommend you reading up, or taking classes on advertising/marketing it really is intellectually stimulating.
I've taken the liberty of reposting my first post, so we can talk about this in its entire context...
If you read his first post entitled: "Dancing" you notice the first thing he does is talk about it snowing outside, and then he immediately mentions Jon Snow. Then starts talking about snow falling again…
In the next paragraph he mentions that he's going to switch to a Jon [Snow excluded] chapter the next day. He says Jon not Jon Snow because he wants you to forget about the snow now...GRRM moves on about finishing a chapter...blah, blah, blah…
Go back and read that first paragraph, and you'll see that that is the hook...That's what he wanted you to read. The reason why he wrote it this way is that he knows that everyone reads the first paragraph and then skims over the rest of the post, until you get to the final lines where it talks about him, "Writing, writing..." Your eyes do that involuntarily, and that's why if your applying for a job the 1st and last paragraphs of your cover letter should list all you qualifications because everything else is skimmed over. That's not to say that they don't go back and reread it, but the first and last are always read…
Back to the first paragraph...notice how the sentence structure is different from the rest of the post? They're short and choppy that's because they resonate with people more so than long sentences. It's why all great slogans whether they be for companies or politics are all just a couple words...Coke is it...You voted Obama because you want Hope and Change...You drink Maxwell House coffee because it's Good till the last drop....You rent a car from Avis because We try harder....7-up is the UnCola... You eat Frosted Flakes because They're Grrrreat! Get the point yet?
OK, now go back and read the first paragraph and the last line.... Admit it, your imagining George sitting at his computer, looking out the window watching the snow fall down while he's working on A Dance with Dragons...Imagine, by the way is another strong advertising word because the word gets you to picture in your mind the message I want to convey.
On to post #2 entitled "A Good Day, With Snow"
He uses snow again. Where did we see snow last time? In the first paragraph of his last post. What was happening in the first paragraph? It was snowing.... Get the picture...
Of course, the meat of the post was a picture of the cover of aDwD. Nothing is more powerful than a visual aid. It automatically draws your eyes to it and conveys a message. What did it say next to the picture? "'nuff said" Short sentence. Skim to the end, and what does it say? Accomplished. The intended message was, "I finished the book!" See advertising tricks....
Then there was post #3 entitled "No, No, No"
Picture of angry typewriter. Visual. Now he plays the victim. George tries to give his fans an update and everyone overreacts. This is why he doesn't update because no one understands what he's talking about blah, blah, blah....
GRRM is not a stupid man, Shawn. I know you want to believe that he didn't realize what peoples reaction would be when he made that post, but your wrong Shawn. GRRM knew exactly what he was doing…
There is the entire context of my argument. I walked you through it. I pointed out what he did, why he did it, and the reaction he wanted, and I gave examples too. So Shawn, don't come back and tell me what he didn't say….I know what he didn't say, and I just explained to you why he said what he said…
The "Snow" post is a blank canvas that people can project their hopes onto. That's what it is… So if your fans are always overreacting over everything you post about the subject, how can you believe that he was surprised by the reaction he got? You can't! You would have to believe that his IQ was so low that you'd trip over it to believe that.
[i]If you are so sure in how he has treated you so badly, why keep reading him?[/i]
I don't. I haven't cracked the cover of any ASOIAF-related book since October of 2008.
[i]Why keep arguing against him on forums? I don't understand.
This has to be the worst case of a codependent relationship I've ever seen.[/i]
I keep arguing because The Man keeps doing and saying things deserving of being called out. In your previous response, you mentioned that fans 'in the know' about the lack of update situation should share their information with new fans. That's what I do, only my version of it – I share my information about what I see as The Man's true nature.
And, I freely admit, I do this in part because I feel betrayed by Martin. For about eight years, I held him in as high an esteem as I did his series. From early 2008 to mid-2009, he repaid that trust by treating me and all other readers who had doubts and dared express them on his blog like dirt he couldn't stand the sight of, except when came the time to buy the latest piece of merchandise he was peddling. The wrath of the wronged, and all that. Mind you, I don't go about expressing it by ranting or spamming mindlessly, but by posting what I hope are coherent arguments backed up by evidence when necessary.
If you saw an innocent person being manipulated and exploited by a callous snake-oil salesman who's already tried to do the same to you, wouldn't you try to at least offer the potential victim some warning about what he/she's getting into? That's what I try to do where The Man is concerned.
[i]That's a real case scenario of George not doing the very thing you are accusing him of.[/i]
The example you provided is really mild, IMO – the worst thing that poster did was call Martin inconsistent. I would hardly call that ban-worthy. And I have proof my own backing up what I said about the double standard for rude sycophants. In the (in)famous February 2009 Dance 'update,' one can read the following right on the first page of comments:
Bwarman wrote:
Chin up...
Thank you Mr. Martin.
Your works are amazing, and I can only imagine the frustration from the direct emails, but I believe genius needs its time.
So take it. You haven't let me down with an Ice & Fire book yet, and I trust your method. There will always be curmudgeons, whiners, and the impatient. I'm sorry to hear that the supportive haven't been louder than the destructive.
Again, thank you for your hard work.
Wyldemusic wrote:
It's done when it's done.
The only concern that should be at hand (aside from Bantam wanting to get it out for people to buy) is that if the TV series goes ahead, it doesn't run right over you while you're working towards the end of the book series.
Seriously...fuck 'em all. What counts is what you're doing with the work.
Those comments are also still there, the posters weren't banned and didn't receive so much as a warning. Where's that accountability you mentioned? I'm positive that had similar comments come from detractors, the banhammer would have fallen on them fast and hard.
@ Craterus:
"I've heard you and others use the second world war and the fact he wasnt teaching during that period as if it was a creative sabbatical that Tolkien was taking. It beggars belief."
But you said he couldn't write because there were bombs falling on his head (there weren't). I pointed out that your argument was weak because it was untrue. And now you shift the goalposts around. Poor arguing technique.
"That CS Lewis wrote faster than Tolkien should not mean that we can compare MArtin and Tolkien situation just because others in Martin's generation can write faster. It's truly baffles me how you guys can use this comparison..."
Well, you made the point that back in the days before word processors people just took a long time to write books, so the fact that Tolkien had to write 1200 pages of LORD OF THE RINGS by hand and then type it up afterwards was the reason for it taking 17 years to write and publish. The fact that Lewis wrote the 1400 pages of the complete CHRONICLES OF NARNIA series in about eight years shows this to be an incorrect assessment.
The Tolkien comparison is indeed somewhat unsatisfying because LotR is now finished and been out for 50 years, whilst ADWD obviously hasn't, whilst LotR wasn't the fifth book in a long-running series and ADWD is, but in terms of the two authors' writing techniques (the 'waves coming up the beach' approach used by both) and the structural issues faced by both books (Tolkien struggled with aligning the timelines of the Frodo/Sam storyline, the Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli timeline and the Merry/Pippin one, whilst GRRM is struggling with aligning the Westeros/Wall/Meereen/characters in transit story arcs), the comparisons are both clear and valid.
Saying, "No, they are not," with nothing to back up that statement is simply a wholly inadequate response.
Silent and others: "http://grrm.livejournal.com/69850.html?thread=5198554"
You are right. I don't see anything there. I see a quote from a man who enjoys being read. If you ask any author out there what they enjoy most about writing, they will either say it is the writing or it is seeing the joy that their writing brings once the book is no longer their own.
Writing is tough. That's what I see Martin saying. Watching other people read his books, on the other hand, is an incomparable joy.
You of course take his comment to a dark side. I take it to mean something completely different. Perhaps more valid, since I write for a living. I hope some of you will read that comment from a writer's point of view.
By the way, he wouldn't be a writer if he didn't love it. Writers who don't love it burn out really fast.
I can see I'm never going to win any of these arguments, even though my points -- as a reader and a writer, who sees both sides more clearly -- will never be given due consideration. Or if they are, it is fleeting and spun aside.
I understand exactly why each of you are upset. Every one of you. I just don't agree in your assessments. I don't feel jaded because I took responsibility and stopped reading the man due to the length it takes him to write a book -- a length of time that has been fairly consistent since Thrones, I might add, with the exception of Dance which is a year late in my opinion. Since I don't feel jaded, though, I'm also not biased at all. The negativity that is inside each one of you is biasing your read of every post he makes. I simply don't agree that that is a good thing.
The snake oil peddler comment made me laugh though. A snake oil peddler peddles something that isn't needed. It has no value whatsoever to anyone, for anyone.
Every single thing that George offers on his site is needed - to someone. He has other fans who are interested in his anthologies and his signed books and the miniatures and what have you. Just because it doesn't meet your fancy doesn't mean it isn't a valid. That hardly makes him a snake peddler. In fact, it doesn't at all.
So you got me with the relentlessness of your assault. You however did not change my opinion, but rather solidified it.
I do have a question for you guys though.
Once Dance is published and out, will you guys be saying these same things when Winds takes 3+ years to write? Despite knowing it will take that long, will you be saying he is late even then?
By the way, I would love to continue these discussions, perhaps on the Forum of Suvudu where the posts won't disappear so rapidly.
I am rewriting my book for one of Stephen King's agents, and I should be done in two weeks. That has to be my first priority, not arguing with intelligent people. Arguing with idiots is easier, but you guys -- takes me an hour to write out a response. That's time I should be spending on my future. haha
I'll let Adam and others have their fun now. :) Talk soon!
By the way, is the Captcha working right now?
"8. Isn't the best way to show our displeasure with George is to not buy A Dance With Dragons when it is published?"
Not interested in debating. Will vote with my wallet and download "Dance" and the HBO-series from internet torrents. Not one cent from me anymore.
That's a very nice way to snuff out the debate Shawn. Essentially, playing the victim.
And of course your a writer (re-writing a book for one of Steven Kings agents no less!) so that makes some of your points more valid then ours!
Oh, and since your re-writing a book for Steven Kings agent, it seems rather apt to leave a quote from the Great Man himself, which is definietly relevant here:
'An author who is taking 7 years to write a novel isn't thinking deep thoughts. He's just dicking about'
Actually since George published ASOS in 2000 he hasnt delivered a complete book. FFC was supposed to have DWD in it as well, so he published FFC in 2005 saying it was half of what FFC originally was supposed to be and that DWD was actually the second half of FFC and the series went from 6 projected volumes to 7. So right now people are waiting for the second half of Feast. Sum total of a decade of work from Martin ? 1/2 a book.
I'm not angry though my reading interests have changed so much in 10 years. Most people complain about the quality of FFC but what they don't realize is that the quality is the same, it is they who've changed recognizing poor writing when they see it because they have grown older and sharper.
There is little point me doing the bullet point summary of the issues now but I will certainly respond to Adam’s comments
Adam said: “But you said he couldn't write because there were bombs falling on his head (there weren't). I pointed out that your argument was weak because it was untrue. And now you shift the goalposts around. Poor arguing technique”
My response: OK, I was a touch hyperbolic when I said he had bombs falling directly on his head. Clearly none actually landed on him (thought that would have been quite clear).
Tolkien had a full time job as a professor: You guys argue that even though he did have a full time job, because of the War he actually had some time off so could spend all that time writing just like Martin (theoritcally) could. My point is that the period when England was at war would have been an extremely stressful time and if Martin was in the same boat you wouldn’t expect him to be writing much. (remember the Tolkien-Martin comparison is something you guys came up with)
Adam said “Well, you made the point that back in the days before word processors people just took a long time to write books, so the fact that Tolkien had to write 1200 pages of LORD OF THE RINGS by hand and then type it up afterwards was the reason for it taking 17 years to write and publish. The fact that Lewis wrote the 1400 pages of the complete CHRONICLES OF NARNIA series in about eight years shows this to be an incorrect assessment”
My response: So because one author can publish fast back in the day, that means all should have been able to do at the same speed?? Again the Martin –Tolkien comparison is your invention, if Martin had to work in the same way Tolkien did, how many books do you think he would have published? The answer is of course we can never know.. another reason why the comparison is so flawed its makes those who use it look foolish.
Adam said : “The Tolkien comparison is indeed somewhat unsatisfying because LotR is now finished and been out for 50 years, whilst ADWD obviously hasn't, whilst LotR wasn't the fifth book in a long-running series and ADWD is, but in terms of the two authors' writing techniques (the 'waves coming up the beach' approach used by both) and the structural issues faced by both books (Tolkien struggled with aligning the timelines of the Frodo/Sam storyline, the Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli timeline and the Merry/Pippin one, whilst GRRM is struggling with aligning the Westeros/Wall/Meereen/characters in transit story arcs), the comparisons are both clear and valid”
My response: We understand how Tolkien wrote his books because they have been studied for so long. We really have no idea, apart from throw-away comments about gardening ,about how Martin writes his yet. Sure there are structural issue in both stories, how is that different from 100 (sorry to be hyperbolic again) other stories that have been written over the years. Just because Martin is struggling with his timeline, and so did Tolkien does not mean they can be compared.
I will concede one point. If Martin ever finishes this series (not just Dance) and it is done with the excellence of his early work THEN and only then can you start the comparison between Tolkien and Martin.
Adam said: “Saying, "No, they are not," with nothing to back up that statement is simply a wholly inadequate response.”
My response: I don’t think I’ve ever just said “no they are not” without some argument backing it up. I have certainly seen the “Martin is the American Tolkien” marketing spiel plenty of times without any substance behind it though
Shawn said: "Once Dance is published and out, will you guys be saying these same things when Winds takes 3+ years to write? Despite knowing it will take that long, will you be saying he is late even then?"
By asking this question it shows that you have not paid any attention to anyone else's points sorry Shawn.
If Martin says on the last page of a half written Dance, that Winds will be out in 12 months time and then continues to say "i'll be done in x months, but in the meantime buy my crap" and then takes 4+ years to release it... i won't be surprised but surely it will be fair to say its late.
Just to make one point as clear as possible for you. It's not how long its taken George to write this books thats the problem.. its his behaviour whilst he's writing it that has been annoying and disrespectful.
"So because one author can publish fast back in the day, that means all should have been able to do at the same speed?"
No. That was how your argument came across. You said that one of the reasons that Tolkien took a long time to write LotR is because he didn’t have access to modern word-processors. This argument is a fallacy because other writers at the time wrote longer works far more quickly. In fact, they still do. Robert Rankin is famous for writing his novels longhand in exercise books and bashing out 400-page novels in just a few months regardless. Neal Stephenson wrote the entire, 3,000-page BAROQUE CYCLE in longhand in just four or five years or so without using a word processor. Having a word processor doesn’t really speed up the writing process a lot over longhand, only over typewriters, and Tolkien didn’t commit anything to a typewriter until he’d finished the book in longhand (a couple of early chapters he typed up in draft and sent to his publishers for approval aside).
The reasons for Tolkien taking a long time were down to a mixture of structural issues, writing problems and actual, by his own admission, writer's block.
"We really have no idea, apart from throw-away comments about gardening ,about how Martin writes his yet."
We have plenty of blog entries, interviews and so forth to go on. We have his autobiographical essays in DREAMSONGS about his writing technique, in particular, how his novel-writing methodology is derived from his experience in short stories, which I think is another explanation for the lateness of the last two (or, more accurately, the last one and the work-in-progress) volumes. Writing a short story over a few weeks and then polishing it for a few weeks seems to have been transferred to writing ASoIaF, spending weeks on one chapter, weeks more polishing it and then moving onto the next one. Repeat that for 70-odd chapters and then consider that every change to one chapter will likely trigger changes and rewrites to another, and you have the recipe for very long writing periods indeed.
"Just because Martin is struggling with his timeline, and so did Tolkien does not mean they can be compared."
Well, clearly if both are having timeline issues, of course they can be compared and contrasted, as both can be compared to Jordan and Erikson, who have also both had major problems in this department as well.
"I have certainly seen the "Martin is the American Tolkien" marketing spiel plenty of times without any substance behind it though"
I’ll agree with this. The closest thing to an American Tolkien regarding issues of popularity, some of the themes involved, the creation of invented languages (if nowhere on the scale of Tolkien) and also the high fantasy set-up (unlike the 'low' fantasy, historically-derived nature of ASoIaF) is Robert Jordan’s WHEEL OF TIME. Tad Williams’ MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN may also be a more valid comparison due to its slightly more formal language and its complete (although still gargantuan) status. I think Martin is doing something somewhat different to those works, although still influenced and, in the case of Tolkien and Williams, inspired by them.
Thank you all for an intelligent debate. I've also made the points I wanted to, so I will bow out now unless something else I want to write about comes up.
Shawn, good luck with the rewrites and the agent!
Adam said: Having a word processor doesn’t really speed up the writing process a lot over longhand, only over typewriters, and Tolkien didn’t commit anything to a typewriter until he’d finished the book in longhand (a couple of early chapters he typed up in draft and sent to his publishers for approval aside).
The reasons for Tolkien taking a long time were down to a mixture of structural issues, writing problems and actual, by his own admission, writer's block.
My response: Well there you go, we can’t compare Martin and Tolkien because Martin has never once admitted to writers block! But in all seriousness, we’re going to go round in circles about this I think. Your examples of Rankin and Stephenson have nothing to do with the Tolkein Martin Comparison. Though I would agree in general that having a word processor doesn’t necessarily speed up the writing process. In the specific example I am arguing against here, ie the Martin-Tolkien one.. I say that Martin would be much much slower in publishing if he had to long hand his novels first, especially as he admits to re-writing so much, and I believe Tolkiens would have been speeded up with a modern PC because he could have kept all his research much more accessible (for one eg). When it comes to it, the only two authors that we should be discussing in this argument are Tolkien and Martin because they are the two you guys are always comparing. What any other Author can or can’t do is beside the point and you’re being deflective bringing them up.
Adam said: We have plenty of blog entries, interviews and so forth to go on. We have his autobiographical essays in DREAMSONGS about his writing technique, in particular, how his novel-writing methodology is derived from his experience in short stories, which I think is another explanation for the lateness of the last two (or, more accurately, the last one and the work-in-progress) volumes.
My response: Well, I for one don’t believe to much of what he says in his blog but that’s beside the point. If we are to take his essays in Dreamsong as wrote, them Martin’s career is also “littered with the corpses of dead series”.. doesn’t give you too much hope for ASOIAF does it. But again that’s beside the point. The simple fact is we do know much more about Tolkiens methods than we do Martins, until martins work has been studied for a long time that will always be the case… again my point is that its hard to compare two authors techniques when they are in the same generation, its impossible when they are so far apart as Martin and Tolkien.
Adam said: Well, clearly if both are having timeline issues, of course they can be compared and contrasted, as both can be compared to Jordan and Erikson, who have also both had major problems in this department as well.
My response: OK, I’ll concede for arguments sake that you can compare and contrast particular issues that two authors may deal with. But that’s not what you guys do. When you break your argument down to first principles you say “Tolkien took many decades to write his series - Martin is taking many decades to write his series: Therefore its OK for Martin to be as delayed as he likes, and he can behave however he likes during that delay because Tolkien took a long time and look how good his novels have turned out”
In a nutshell that’s what you and Shawn (plus others) are postulating.. It’s baffling. One has nothing to do with the other.
Adam said: “ I’ll agree with this. The closest thing to an American Tolkien regarding issues of popularity, some of the themes involved, the creation of invented languages (if nowhere on the scale of Tolkien) and also the high fantasy set-up (unlike the 'low' fantasy, historically-derived nature of ASoIaF) is Robert Jordan’s WHEEL OF TIME. Tad Williams’ MEMORY, SORROW AND THORN may also be a more valid comparison due to its slightly more formal language and its complete (although still gargantuan) status. I think Martin is doing something somewhat different to those works, although still influenced and, in the case of Tolkien and Williams, inspired by them.”
My response: Well something we can agree on at least. Doesn’t seem as much fun to respond when we agree though!